Sweden

Removing 'insta-heal' cheat would be enough for Multiplayer balance.
Also if something is ok for single-player but not multi-player - it just means that single-player AI is bad and you are exploiting it. So in these cases Multiplayer should be used as reference and single-player AI improved to behave more similar to how players play in multi.
 
Also Swedish player may intentionally put some weak archers or galleys near city states and attack them every turn, just to speedup birth of generals...
 
We play multiplayer on King or Emperor, but difficulty is irrelevant as its PvP.
Last time I checked it was +30% Near Great General AND +15% Great General in same tile ( so 30% more than other civ can achieve).

That's how Tercio vs Tercio looks like when fighting against Sweden:
http://dump.*****eese.net/files/xocusem/fghdfgfdg.png
Even if we drop Empire Unhappy, Flanking and Fortification strength will still differ by 2-3 times.

Anyway, not even close to be as overpowered as insta-healing.
Stacked bonus only applies to the stacked unit, meaning only one per great general. Being near general already gives +15%, so having +30% is only 15% stronger than usual. The melee unit benefiting from +30% as it is stacked with the great general surely is strong, but only applies to one unit. I don't think it overpowered.

The healing bonus is nice, but you can't predict when your next great general is going to born, so it's a bit random. It can come too late to be useful, or too early when your units don't need healing. Sometimes the stars align, and it's a wonderful ability.
 
The healing bonus is nice, but you can't predict when your next great general is going to born, so it's a bit random
Yeah but 'Stars align' only for Sweden. It's either normal war, or suddenly Sweden gets instaheal and snowballs you to hell. Pretty one-sided random, no? And from one of our last games, generals were born about every 5 turns, because armies were large and sweden had multiple wars going on. So every 5 turns I had to deal with fresh army, my army didn't even had time to heal. If armies were even larger - generals would spawn every 2 or every turn. How's that, random is it?
Basically as second general is born shortly after first one - it's over for you. After first one your army was damaged almost to death and after second you just run or lose it all completely, while Sweden doesn't risk to lose a single unit ( because they all healed ).
 
We play multiplayer on King or Emperor, but difficulty is irrelevant as its PvP.
VP is not balanced for multiplayer at all. But there is plenty of civs that can beat Sweaden. If you play vs human-Sweden then take Askia, or Zulu, or Greece, or Aztec, or Celts. Or ban Sweden. Or pick Inca and laugh in Sweden's face. AI Sweden is okay
 
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Sweden's bonuses are not so overblown as @nj666 vividly describes. They lack any infrastructure boni before Skola.

Either extra general bonus or heal on general probably should go though. Way too much stacked for Swedes.
 
How is infinetely healing army not overblown? It's almost like if every unit had Medic XX and Survivalism 3 promotions for free.
It's okay when armies are small and wars happen on small scales. The problem is that increase of armies and war activity results in increase of generals generation and frequency of unexpected self-healing of every unit, so once sweden builds large enough army and starts warmongering - it becomes unstoppable. The more you fight it - the more it will heal and quicker it will advance. So you will lose if you fight it and lose if not fight it.
There is nothing you can do to stop this.
 
How is infinetely healing army not overblown? It's almost like if every unit had Medic XX and Survivalism 3 promotions for free.
It's okay when armies are small and wars happen on small scales. The problem is that increase of armies and war activity results in increase of generals generation and frequency of unexpected self-healing of every unit, so once sweden builds large enough army and starts warmongering - it becomes unstoppable. The more you fight it - the more it will heal and quicker it will advance. So you will lose if you fight it and lose if not fight it.
There is nothing you can do to stop this.
There's something not right in your reasoning. Sweden is one of the most war oriented civs, but not the toughest, even with all their bonuses. You may think so, but you are basing your case in one or two games, people here is talking after hundreds of games.

I can't talk for multiplayer, but even all those bonuses might be insufficient if Sweden can't keep her empire happy (notice your -20% penalty for unhappiness?), something that happens more often when you don't have economic bonuses and specially when going full conquest. The healing thing can be quite good, but the player cannot plan for it. What would you do? Would you leave most of your units barely alife just hoping a great general will be born soon? I can see that a sweden player may risk their units a bit more, keeping them in the battlefield a little longer than usual. Other civs keep their units longer in the battlefield thanks to special abilities. Sweden is arguably the best warmonger right now, but war isn't everything. If you manage to influence a neighbour, you get combat bonuses, so tourism works too. If your economy is stellar, you can field and replace more up to date units. If you control world congress, you may ban one civ, making combat against that civ easier. Also, defense is easier than attack. You don't need to conquer Sweden in order to beat her. Pillaging wars do the trick against most runaways.

A personal doubt of mine. Do multiplayer games ever get a non-domination end game? I can't imagine how weak must Morocco seem if games are ended in turn 200. And how strong China, without time for suffering decay.
 
A personal doubt of mine. Do multiplayer games ever get a non-domination end game? I can't imagine how weak must Morocco seem if games are ended in turn 200. And how strong China, without time for suffering decay.

Most our games end before industrial era. But we have quite difficult skill levels.
 
but even all those bonuses might be insufficient if Sweden can't keep her empire happy (notice your -20% penalty for unhappiness?)
Same is true for every empire.
But it's possible to go full conquest even with 179 unhappyness as Mongols, I did it once and won. For Sweden it would be piece of cake.

The healing thing can be quite good, but the player cannot plan for it.
Sweden player doesn't have to. He just needs to do war as usual. And then general just comes as pleasant surprise, and in the same turn he can just go all in and kill everything. As for enemy player it's the opposite - he will also do war as usual, but suddenly Sweden will get general and in the same turn his army will be rekd and he will have to do full retreat.
So it's pleasant surprise for Sweden and sudden death for everybody else. They both can't plan but Sweden doesn't need to because even without insta-heal general bonuses make their army somewhat superior. Other player really really need to know when enemy army will suddenly heal, but he has no means to know it. So russian roulette for him. Quite unfair, no?

Would you leave most of your units barely alife just hoping a great general will be born soon?
No. You just wage war as usual, carefully and slowly. Same as you would with any other civ. Then general happens and you win. Other player, on other hand, would have to expect sudden healing of enemy army any turn, so how must he play? Move any unit with < 60 HP away from front line? But for this he will have to have a much larger army, and he will still run out of fresh units eventually (as Sweden will get 2-3 generals and rushes in with fresh units) and then he will have no choise but full retreat.

I can see that a sweden player may risk their units a bit more
Again, no. Sweden doesn't even have to do it. You fight as usual as with any other civ, just rush in with fresh units when generals are born and decimate enemy army which he will have no means to heal in time.

but war isn't everything
This kinda helps, but in multiplayer war is still very important. Even if you play 'peaceful' style, there will still be a moment with you declare war on other player or he declares war on you. Then you decimate his army and capture some cities as needed. And so on. Our multiplayer games often end after first global war with large armies. And large army is what makes Sweden completely unstoppable (unless outnumbered 5 to 1 maybe).
Sweden, despite not having economy bonuses, doesn't have any real weaknesses also, and may still perform well. And none of economy bonuses of peaceful civilizations are as powerful and imbalanced as this 'insta-heal' feature.

If you manage to influence a neighbour, you get combat bonuses, so tourism works too. If your economy is stellar, you can field and replace more up to date units. If you control world congress, you may ban one civ, making combat against that civ easier. Also, defense is easier than attack. You don't need to conquer Sweden in order to beat her. Pillaging wars do the trick against most runaways.
Of course. But this is true for any civilization, Sweden can also benefit from those activities. None of these activities are so particularry beneficial for some peaceful civilization as war is beneficial to Sweden.
 
Sweden can also benefit from those activities
But she has no bonuses towards those activities.

But it's possible to go full conquest even with 179 unhappyness as Mongols
I don't say it's not possible, I'm saying your +15%/+30% turns into -5%/+10% if you go all nuts conquering.

Sweden player doesn't have to. He just needs to do war as usual
I'll concede this as an unique advantage of Sweden.

You fight as usual as with any other civ,
Not true. Normally you have to be very careful with your units.

Our multiplayer games often end after first global war with large armies
Inherent problem of a game that last 20 hours when playing solo. Civs that shine in early game are much stronger, since the games aren't going to last.
 
But she has no bonuses towards those activities.
Same as nearly any other civ.

Not true. Normally you have to be very careful with your units.
Yes, I mean that with Sweden you play as carefully as with any other civ. But when general appears and your army is healed - you get a chance to punish unsuspecting enemy army ( because he could not anticipate all your units healed immediately this turn ).

Civs that shine in early game are much stronger, since the games aren't going to last.
Sweden shines during entire game. All it has to do is have enough war activity to spawn generals frequently - this will make army constantly healing and unstoppable.
 
If you want to nerf Sweden, you can change it for yourself in the game mod files. For example, GKLeaderChanges.sql under Gustavus you can set the great general extra bonus to 1 instead of 15.
 
If you want to nerf Sweden, you can change it for yourself in the game mod files. For example, GKLeaderChanges.sql under Gustavus you can set the great general extra bonus to 1 instead of 15.
This is not the main problem.
The main problem is sudden instant heal of all units. This is what needs to be removed.
General bonuses can at least be predictable and accounted for by other players. Instant healing is always unpredicted and provides too much benefit.
 
Great, then dig into the mod files, find and remove the instant heal from the UA, and you'll have the version VP that you want.
 
i don't see anything Op on this. In defensive war, you usually fight in your own lands, so you may be forced turn your production toward new units but still. There are factors of terain, wonders( great wall,himeji), religion and overall progress of attacked civ. If attacked civ is somewhat ahead in techs, has a huge production base and is strong at begining of war, you will have to do much more effort than just wait for GG born. not to mention, that if they leave their injured unit on warline at the end of their turn, i would maybe predict what they intend to do. If i am already besieged, it does not matter anymore if they spit out new general, because i have already lost. If i can see their military score, and it is just begining of the war, i will have to make new units and also if i am their neighbour, i would do that even before. Still i can't see how their injured units in background can somehow affect actuall happening in frontline, unless we are talking about specific situation, where both fight in open terrain or sweden units have bonus movement
 
Ok so let's balance it, no?
It will break single player
Maybe but not in war. Once Sweden starts war against you - you can just give up and leave
I'm pretty sure that this is just not true. Especially for Inca, they are invulnerable. Shaka's units with Icandas will be about as strong as Sweden's. And in case Sweden vs Aztec/Celts Sweden will not build a single city before turn80
 
It will break single player
How?

Especially for Inca, they are invulnerable.
Really? What if Sweden builds some archers that heal every 3 turns completely while making moves and attacks?

Shaka's units with Icandas will be about as strong as Sweden's.
But they can't suddenly heal. You are missing my point entirely...
Sudden heal is what makes Sweden imbalanced because it always comes as a surprise for other player and Sweden gets one turn to attack partially injured army with fully healed units, so several units will be killed ez. If combined with some Authority or faith policies i.e. that let units heal upon killing, it will make it even worse.
 
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