Sweden

[LukaSlovenia29]

Then remove the instant heal from the UA in the VP mod files, and you'll have the version VP that you want.

 

[Owlbebach]

Really? What if Sweden builds some archers that heal every 3 turns completely while making moves and attacks?

They can't do anything with cities on mountains.

Also if i'm not mistaken - they heal when General is born. You definetely do not get Generals every 3 turns....

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Really? What if Sweden builds some archers that heal every 3 turns completely while making moves and attacks?

Great generals don't come around as often as you present it. If you take Sweden and someone takes Aztecs or Celts and you start next to each other, I'm betting on the Aztecs/Celts winning the game 99 times out of a 100.

 

[nj666]

You definetely do not get Generals every 3 turns....

In our game Sweden got one General and then another after 4 turns or so. Because we united vs Sweden so there were multiple wars going on, but obviously it just helped Sweden.
Also in multiplayer players can abuse citystates by constantly bombarding them with archers and galleys, constantly get XP and General Points, and this process can be really effective.
General every 3 turns is possible.

Anyway, even if not - a single General birth can win a war. Imagine you are fighting for long time, both armies are exhausted, you are carefully balancing each other, fighting with injured units vs injured units, every HP matters. Then suddenly enemy army becomes full HP. And that's the end of you.

If you take Sweden and someone takes Aztecs or Celts and you start next to each other, I'm betting on the Aztecs/Celts winning the game 99 times out of a 100.

Yes maybe, if Sweden won't have time to build large army. The larger is army - the more general points and more often this insta-healing. So Sweden may somehow lose in early game if being rushed, but then it catches up and then overwhelms everything.

 

[Owlbebach]

In our game Sweden got one General and then another after 4 turns or so. Because we united vs Sweden so there were multiple wars going on, but obviously it just helped Sweden.

Was it Human-Sweden or AI Sweden? Might be faith-purchased General. But i do not see it happening more than like 5-6 times in the game

What difficulty do you play in Single player?

 

[nj666]

Was it Human-Sweden or AI Sweden? Might be faith-purchased General.

Human Sweden in multiplayer.
Unlikely to be purchased as we weren't in Industrial Era yet. Also unlikely to be generated by World Wonder, because I'd see notification about this wonder.
Still, even a single birth of general can win war in some cases. It's impossible for enemy player to anticipate it and prepare for it..

 

[tu_79]

Because we united vs Sweden so there were multiple wars going on, but obviously it just helped Sweden

Ah! Here is your mistake. Sweden was defending, and probably had well defended terrain. You are playing into her game, now tell me Sweden took Authority. I never go after Sweden (or any heavy warmonger) unless I have a clear advantage. you could try sending a couple of scouts on a surprise pillage rampage and let sweden units pursue yours.

Next time play Sweden yourself, tell your friends it's a scientifical experiment, and see if you can win so easily.

 

[nj666]

I never go after Sweden (or any heavy warmonger) unless I have a clear advantage.

So you see this as legit solution? Don't attack Sweden?
What if Sweden attacks you?
And what do you mean by 'clear advantage'? You can't have advantage over Sweden because nothing else is so overpowered as this instant healing chance.

 

[Paramecium]

Sorry, but if you speak about Multiplayer Balance, there is only one reasonable Setting for a balanced play and that is DONUT at Quick Speed and One City Challenge only... so obviously the WHOLE mod should be balanced around it.

Sorry, couldnt resist it.

But seriously, stating something around that the game HAS to be balanced around multiplayer is a very arrogant way. Multiplayer is way harder to balance and we are still speaking about a quite specific MOD about a game which is already seven years old and which was way more Singleplayer from the start than multiplayer ever was.

That said, can you really say that every player in your sessions is about the same skill level? I think there is already a big difference about players who go for Science/Culture/Diplomatic Victory or Domination. (in there normal Singleplayer Games I mean and on King/Emperor difficulty it is quite different)

And you can only get 2 victory types before Industrial Era and that is very rarely Culture or Domination. So how exactly can you claim that the game is balanced?

The problem with Sweden is, that you have a general combat bonus at melee units, which you dont want to attack that frequently in general. With bigger armies and later in game, melee units change to blockers, they wont attack that often.
And the biggest problem in your equation is, that surely Sweden gets way more out of it when a Great General is born than every other Civ, maybe only the Mongols, but how do you use those Generals?
I have very big problems to agree to that because you stated ONE occasion about that Situation and I really doubt it if EVERY other player was on the same skill level as the sweden player...

In Civ 5 it was the really big change from Civ 4 that the defensive play WAS hugely changed into favor. Sweden gets better Generals, no doubt. But they dont get more then everyone else, they have no Bonus to faster GG generation. So Sweden is facing the same amount of GG on the other side of the Battlefield if we are speaking about a balanced play. And if I know that my neigbhour is Sweden in MP Game, I would be very careful, if I can transform my frontline to sweden in trench frontline, clustering it with citadels and if I was lucky getting the Great Wall and containing a happiness bonus, I wouldnt be that afraid of it, if I wont attack. Like already said, it is way more easier to defend than attack.

And what happened in your game if Sweden became a runaway without warmongering before and killing the fun of a neighbour player, who didnt want to go early warmongering. Like you said, Sweden has like the most civs no Bonus to anything before ST in non combat. What did you guys picked that one player could run away with that big unhappiness?

Multiplayer is just way to different from Singleplayer...

 

[nj666]

Paramecium : and yet you completely ignored the issue of sudden healing of entire army... How do you counter that? You can't. When at war with Sweden, every turn can become your last and you have no way to predict it.

 

[CrazyG]

I could post similar complaints about how ridicluous the Huns capturing my unit is, or the Incan bowmen on mountains. How was Sweden during in terms of culture and science during Renaissance and Medieval? Keep in mind that he has zero economic bonuses at all for most of the game, if he was keeping up with the other empires that means he was playing better.

It sounds to me like the solution this game was to gang up on him earlier. With the extra few % added, Sweden is probably a very serious threat in multiplayer. Sweden's big weakness is that his unique buildings and units arrive quite late. For the record I considered Sweden to be garbage tier until his most recent buffs. I think the most threatening aspect of Sweden is actually all the XP you can accumulate after spamming a few great generals. There are multiple warmongers available that can become ridiculuous threats at some point.

 

[L29Ah]

That said, can you really say that every player in your sessions is about the same skill level?

For the record: nj666 is nj in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16vB8fjaObYuzVPrQamRALI8_bvE5PnU3is6s47qyoVM/edit?pli=1#gid=0

 

[Paramecium]

Paramecium : and yet you completely ignored the issue of sudden healing of entire army... How do you counter that? You can't. When at war with Sweden, every turn can become your last and you have no way to predict it.

I agree, the instant heal is powerfull, but I am not sure if it is completely broken. If the war is just 1 vs 1, the opponent of Sweden can roughly calculate when the next Great General is coming because the opponent might get his GG roughly around the same time.

And like I said, attack and defense are two completly different things, especially in MP. If I dont play a warmonger, I wouldnt attack Sweden. If I have a border to sweden, I would look for it to make it defensible as possible. If I get the Great Wall, I call gg to all Warmongers, breaking through a fortified frontline of Citadels, rivers, hills, forest, everything clustered with blocker units and en masse ranged ones behind it and fast hitting mounted/armored units striking and retreating, it would be a nightmare and tedious to break through, especially because the defender can easilier heal its units and build new ones and get them faster to the front line.

For the record: nj666 is nj in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16vB8fjaObYuzVPrQamRALI8_bvE5PnU3is6s47qyoVM/edit?pli=1#gid=0

So you are playing in the most cases just with 3 players? Or AIs to fill in? What is red and green? Dead and Alive? Or won? And what information shall I get from it?

But like I see, you have nearly always some early warmonger in the game against no warmongers. And what settings are you playing?

And last, if there is sth for you which is imbalanced and everyone knows it, why dont you guys discuss it? Like already said,delete the line in the code giving the heal. Or what about banning civs before starting? And speaking about exploits? Because CS are so easy to abuse, which is in my opinion cheap play. But how should you balance MP, if humans in that game wage war completely different than the AI? What would you do, if 2 players fight "friendly" wars, just to level their units?

 

[Owlbebach]

Human Sweden in multiplayer.

Well i really do not want to be disrespectful, but thats just ridiculous

You seriously claim that it is impossible to ally agains Sweden and kill it in Human vs Human game? With all limiting stuff like Supply Cap and War Weariness? With all the respect, stop complaining and try to optimize your game. What you are saying only indicates that you do not understand lots of game aspects.

For the record: nj666 is nj in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16vB8fjaObYuzVPrQamRALI8_bvE5PnU3is6s47qyoVM/edit?pli=1#gid=0

nj is anally denounced? I want to know the whole story!

 

[L29Ah]

So you are playing in the most cases just with 3 players? Or AIs to fill in? What is red and green? Dead and Alive? Or won? And what information shall I get from it?

But like I see, you have nearly always some early warmonger in the game against no warmongers. And what settings are you playing?

And last, if there is sth for you which is imbalanced and everyone knows it, why dont you guys discuss it? Like already said,delete the line in the code giving the heal. Or what about banning civs before starting? And speaking about exploits? Because CS are so easy to abuse, which is in my opinion cheap play. But how should you balance MP, if humans in that game wage war completely different than the AI? What would you do, if 2 players fight "friendly" wars, just to level their units?

Yes, with AIs up to 8. Red is resignation, green is survival. You may get the idea of nj's level of play.
Dunno, we're all early warmongers. nj tends to overdo it tho. Settings and rules are outlined in http://*****eese.net/games/civ5
CS? Friendly wars aren't really profitable as the empires would suffer from the massive war weariness, no?

nj is anally denounced? I want to know the whole story!

He broke the war declaration rules.

 

[Paramecium]

CS? Friendly wars aren't really profitable as the empires would suffer from the massive war weariness, no?

CS = City State. What I mean, it is just way too easy to abuse the CS. You see an unguarded worker? Declare War, capture, make peace. In VP it is not that easy like in Vanilla, but still can work.
Otherwise, yeah can just farm xp/culture/science with those, and like it looks, Japan and Sweden are in the best positions to exploit it (the Aztecs maybe too).

And war weariness just kicks in, when the war lasts too long and if you suffer major casualities. Both you can avoid with a friendly war, just hitting the healthiest melee units with archers, both sides get their free xp ...

 

[L29Ah]

Where can i get the formula used for the war weariness btw?

 

[tu_79]

nj is anally denounced?

I thought exactly the same thing. Other one: nj never played sweden.

 

[Voker57]

Where can i get the formula used for the war weariness btw?

I believe it's the same as vanilla http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_(Civ5)

 

[Voker57]

And like I said, attack and defense are two completly different things, especially in MP. If I dont play a warmonger, I wouldnt attack Sweden. If I have a border to sweden, I would look for it to make it defensible as possible. If I get the Great Wall, I call gg to all Warmongers, breaking through a fortified frontline of Citadels, rivers, hills, forest, everything clustered with blocker units and en masse ranged ones behind it and fast hitting mounted/armored units striking and retreating, it would be a nightmare and tedious to break through, especially because the defender can easilier heal its units and build new ones and get them faster to the front line.

The situation in the game was the following: me and @nj666 (zulu, ethiopia) were clustered in Europeasia, while @L29Ah was having fun at America of his own (with friendly Austria and curbstomped Egypt). When we finally got to Astronomy to cross the rifts, he was way ahead in everything, so war was necessary. We launched simultaneous strikes on both Sweden borders, and even despite it being an ideal time for Sweden war (Caroleans were deployed widely) I captured several weakly defended cities and nj secured some land from @L29Ah's vassals.

Problem was, @nj666's empire was already crumbling from unhappiness, so he got pushed back into the ocean. He usually plain disregards any infrastructure, annexes all cities he can grab and goes straight for gunpowder, then whines a lot that his tercios don't win the day. If we had two decent empires, we could beat Sweden. Not sure about 1-on-1.