Tactics and Strategy T80-90

[Kaleb]

Oops, a little overdue starting this thread, oh well...

Done some testing, still want to polish a few things off for my T100 sim screenshots but I did find out that we should get GL on T103.

We should also get Lit on T90 but we may need to produce science one turn in a city like Pav because the maintenance and gold levels aren't quite exact in the Sim game and it was very tight to get Lit on T90.

Haz should build Granary > WB(3) > GL. Delaying Lit another turn isn't great because it means

We should also try and get temples in Aktau ASAP because once GL is built a GSci will come in 12 turns (T115). In my test sim I got it so that a GProph was due in 11 turns from the GL (T114) so we can't afford to delay if we want a GProph next.

 

[Kaleb]

This is the happy tactics thread, where we are all going to be nice to each other until turn 90

How's this for T82:

Turn 82 Actions
Worker team > Road West
Worker by Aktau > NE,NW,cottage 1 turn (farm FP next turn)
Bushir > heal if attacked, otherwise push north to forested hill (NE,N)
New warrior > continue to Aktau
Scout > F
Warrior 2 > F
Chariots > stay put

 

[Indiansmoke]

OK I will be nice and not tell you what a #$&@*% you are


I don't understand the worker action in actau...is the road on corn finished? if not finish road?

Also can worker be slaved this turn in actau?

and..I would suggest lighthouse after granary in capital not workboat..iron city can make a workboat for itsself easily with that iron.

 

[Kaleb]

I don't understand the worker action in actau...is the road on corn finished? if not finish road?

I just wanted to get the worker onto the FP of Osk asap. The cottage 1 turn is just a 'free' action. We can road the corn seeing as we are there already. But that will delay us on the way to the FP by 1 turn.

Also can worker be slaved this turn in actau?

Not yet. It can be slaved 3 turns from now, and that will complete it one turn quicker.

and..I would suggest lighthouse after granary in capital not workboat..iron city can make a workboat for itself easily with that iron.

Sure, we could to that instead, I picked wb because it took 3 turns to build and it will be finished on the turn we get Literature.

EDIT> p.s. I'm hoping that barb warrior doesn't attack Bushir. If we can kill him with Ben Hur he'll be able to get Sentry promotion.

 

[Indiansmoke]

It does not make any difference if you road or cottage for 1 turn..worker will still get to flood plain (and be able to farm) in 3 turns (3rd turn ready to farm). It is 5 tiles to the flood from corn...so we either road this turn, improve wine for 1 turn next turn and then farm the turn after, or we cottage for 1 turn, improve wine for 1 turn and farm the turn after.

Another option is to just move the worker 2 moves this turn and next turn put him in the grassland forest 2w of horse city....then chop the forest (barracks) and then improve cow.

Cow is a much better (and quicker) improvement than the farm..and that forest needs to be chopped anyway.

 

[Indiansmoke]

After some limited testing some suggestions:

1. Jewish missionary in Pavlodar (for actau) straight after confu missionary and then confu misionary again (for corn gold city). We should not delay temples in actau as it is marginal with the great library.

2. after worker in actau slave chariot and start temple

3. the plan with chopping barracks in horse city works well, I would suggest it...

4. Lighthouse in capital after granary to half finish it before GL

5. Pavlodar worker after chop can either farm on spot or go mine the grassland hill...but then has to go straight to capital to chop

6. Worker from actau should finish hill mine before moving to forests for chop.

7. Pavlodar after 2 missionaries should get another worker...next settler can come from actau or horse city after 3-4 units.

 

[Kaleb]

Ok, here's what I'm pretty set on:

Oskemen: finish chariot > build warrior, finish warrior before iron is hooked up (this will be our last warrior) > Axeman, chop Axe after 1 turn > build barracks

Pavlodar: finish Confu Missionary (1 turn with chop) > Jewish Missionary / worker builds farm > when pop grows work plain forest until farm ready > worker mines grassy knoll. Pop grows again on turn mine is ready. This worker then goes to Haz to chop.

Hazrate-e: finish granary > 3 turns building something (a wb fits here nicely) > Great Library. Works mined plains hills as pop grows. Workers chop all 3 forests and build cottages. Leave shared mined hill for Aktau once GL completed.

City 6: Build Granary first/wb if Haz doesn't build it.

Shymkent: This one is stumping me a little. I do think we need to keep working that cottage so we can get Lit as early as possible. If we take the cottage off we'll definitely delay Lit a turn. If the corn gets farmed Shymkent will grow fast, but it needs to have improved tiles (like the gold). We've already put 1 into Monument so we could whip on pop 2 if we want to. Or wait until pop will recover to 1 straight away working the corn.

Aktau: we should slave worker as soon as we can and then start on Temple straight away. Chariot can be finished after the temple. Not sure the best timings to whip the temples yet...

 

[Kaleb]

A little more testing done. I would use the new worker from Aktau to mine for Haz, not the one on the corn now.

I would use the one on the corn now to head up to improve Oskemen. Finishing the road will delay him getting to either the cows or the FP by one turn.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Ok, here's what I'm pretty set on:

Oskemen: finish chariot > build warrior, finish warrior before iron is hooked up (this will be our last warrior) > Axeman, chop Axe after 1 turn > build barracks

Pavlodar: finish Confu Missionary (1 turn with chop) > Jewish Missionary / worker builds farm > when pop grows work plain forest until farm ready > worker mines grassy knoll. Pop grows again on turn mine is ready. This worker then goes to Haz to chop.

Hazrate-e: finish granary > 3 turns building something (a wb fits here nicely) > Great Library. Works mined plains hills as pop grows. Workers chop all 3 forests and build cottages. Leave shared mined hill for Aktau once GL completed.

City 6: Build Granary first/wb if Haz doesn't build it.

Shymkent: This one is stumping me a little. I do think we need to keep working that cottage so we can get Lit as early as possible. If we take the cottage off we'll definitely delay Lit a turn. If the corn gets farmed Shymkent will grow fast, but it needs to have improved tiles (like the gold). We've already put 1 into Monument so we could whip on pop 2 if we want to. Or wait until pop will recover to 1 straight away working the corn.

Aktau: we should slave worker as soon as we can and then start on Temple straight away. Chariot can be finished after the temple. Not sure the best timings to whip the temples yet...

sounds good..some details:

1. do not slave worker in actau..but slave chariot immidiattely and overflow to temple..remember we lose hammers for units after 10 turns in que

2. worker from actau corn should move all he can..no intermidiate 1 turn improvements

3. capital better lighhouse, iron city can make workboat very fast

4. i would not make monument in corn gold city, but make a missionary from pavlodar instead..so 3 missionaries and then worker...would also test chopping the other forest as well after farm.

5. corn gold city can slave granary..will grow fast so tiles will be uniproved, but after improving cow worker can cottage shared tile with horse city (grassland) so we can switch tiles when needed.

 

[damnrunner]

Kaleb's plan – I like it but have a few thoughts.

Building Missionaries
I still don't think we need to build so many confu missionaries right away. Maybe I was out of town when the apparent consensus on this was reached. I think we need a Jewish one for Aktau but otherwise they can wait. We will want them before we build a shirn but there is the possibility of Confu spreading organically and I do not think they are needed for culture right now.

My thinking is that Shymkent has already invested in a monument and we can finish that in order to get cultural expansion – though it has plenty of tiles to work as it is so that just puts building a monument or sending over a missionary further down on my priority list.

The iron city can also build a fast monument with an iron mine. But if we are building a confu missionary, I think that we should send it to the iron city.


What to do with Haz for the extra 3 turns?

Since the iron city can build a WB quite fast on its own - how does the timing work out with sailing one south from Haz? Indiansomke suggested building a lighthouse. I like this idea, but he also mentioned that one loses hammers if something is in the queue for more than 10 turns. I don’t know how this works (please explain) but if the GL is going to take more than 10 turns then we may want to build something we can finish in 3 turns. A chariot might work? Another idea would be to build a monastery the 10% science bonus will be good for the city.

 

[Kaleb]

The iron city can also build a fast monument with an iron mine. But if we are building a confu missionary, I think that we should send it to the iron city

Yes, the missionary is for the iron city. It will give +1 as the iron mine will be done on the turn the missionary can spread religion.

I would rather whip a monument in Shymkent as it will be a while before the city has 4 and hence the only benefit of the missionary will be +1.

What to do with Haz for the extra 3 turns?

Since the iron city can build a WB quite fast on its own - how does the timing work out with sailing one south from Haz? Indiansomke suggested building a lighthouse. I like this idea, but he also mentioned that one loses hammers if something is in the queue for more than 10 turns. I don’t know how this works (please explain) but if the GL is going to take more than 10 turns then we may want to build something we can finish in 3 turns. A chariot might work? Another idea would be to build a monastery the 10% science bonus will be good for the city.

If we build a wb it will arrive on the fish by by City 6 on the same turn that the borders pop.

I would prefer City 6 just built a granary as it can have the granary ready before reaching pop 2 and therefore will grow to pop 3 quicker.

 

[damnrunner]

I like your logic and agree 100%

 

[Sommerswerd]

Building Missionaries
I still don't think we need to build so many confu missionaries right away. Maybe I was out of town when the apparent consensus on this was reached. I think we need a Jewish one for Aktau but otherwise they can wait. We will want them before we build a shirn but there is the possibility of Confu spreading organically and I do not think they are needed for culture right now.

My thinking is that Shymkent has already invested in a monument and we can finish that in order to get cultural expansion –

The iron city can also build a fast monument with an iron mine. But if we are building a confu missionary, I think that we should send it to the iron city.

I agree with this... there was no consensus reached on building so many missionaries right away. I agree that missionaries can wait to see if religion spreads a little on its own. (Iron city missionary is OK) The Jewish missionary can wait especially, because it is not needed until we have built the Confucian temple first. Pavlodar can build something else in the meantime... like a settler, chariot, axe or spy.

 

[Kaleb]

Well then, two main things to decide next turn are:

1) What to build in Pavlodar
2) What to do with the middle worker (main options IMO: farm FP or move to forest to improve cows the following turn)

 

[damnrunner]

1.
I also like - settler, chariot, axe, or spy. To that list I would also add a barracks.

I think a spy or axe will be most useful. My thinging goes as follows. I think we need some more units before we expand and another settler can wait. We need a barracks but right now we are focusing more on #s units more rather than the quality of units.

We already have a few chariots and getting some axes will be most helpful in dealing with barbarian archers which we will likely start to see soon. A spy on the other hand could move into the gap leading north and would be an excellent fogbuster.

It would take a bit of game testing to confirm, but if the fog busting spy tactic works - I think it would be the best course of action.


2.
I think pasturing the cows is by far the better option as it will allow Osk to become a decent unit production city. My only concern is whether we are sure that we can defend the pasture from pillaging barbarians?

 

[Sommerswerd]

At this point, we can not reliably defend the cow from barbs, because we don't have enough units, and we are not fogbusted far enough into the Syr Darya valley yet. We should probably wait until we get an Axe up by the cow (to stop barb archers/spears) before we pasture the cow... so I would farm FP next as opposed to pasturing cow.

I have tested the spy-fogbusting thing. Spies can fogbust, AND they are immune/invisible to barbs (they can even move onto the same square as barbs safely) but I would actualy like to send the spy out to find a land route to Cavalieros or better yet, SANCTA. A spy next in Pavlodar would be valuable, either way.

My greatest preference is for a settler next in Pavlodar or a chariot, then a settler. Iron is not hooked up yet so we have to wait on an axe, but we could prob build one after finishing the spy.

Either way, I don't have alot of time for testing today, so I will yield to what testers show if that becomes an issue. I will try to post the screenshots from some tests I did last week when I get a chance... I have to sort through the screenshots and decide if I want to use photobucket.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Guys we are in organized religion..this gives 25% hammers in slaving as well. So for every pop we slave (30 hammers) we gain 7 hammers! Not building a missionary for corn gold city is a waste...we wil build granary, library and baracks there by slaving..that is 50 hammers gained from slavery if we have religion in that city! Why lose that? Same for iron city.

In essence..we will spend 40 hammers in Pavlodar to save 80 hammers in corn gold city (1 pop slaving monument + fifty from organized for 2 pop slaves of granary, library and barracks)...

Regarding cow...we have 4 chariots...we can easily defend cow. It is a great tile to work and that forest needs to be chopped to acceletrate baracks and provide easier defence from barbs as well.

Regarding settler, I will say it for the last time and rest my case...we need workers, at least 2 more before settler...we need to be improving land faster and chopping forests..settler can wait a bit IMO

 

[Indiansmoke]

Kaleb's plan – I like it but have a few thoughts.
Indiansomke suggested building a lighthouse. I like this idea, but he also mentioned that one loses hammers if something is in the queue for more than 10 turns. I don’t know how this works (please explain) but if the GL is going to take more than 10 turns then we may want to build something we can finish in 3 turns. A chariot might work? Another idea would be to build a monastery the 10% science bonus will be good for the city.

You start to lose hammers after having a unit in the que for 10 turns (if you already have invested some hammers in it)...but it is 50 turns for buildings.

This does not stop for resuming unit for 1 turn and put iot on the que again after.

So example...you have 10 hamers invested in chariot...start library put chariot in que for 10 turns. next turn you will be losing 1 hammer per turn every turn you leave chariot in que..so after 10 more turns it will be like building a chariot from scratch.
Putting the chariot in production for one turn in turn 11 and in que again in turn 12 does not reset the clock...

For buildings it is 50 turns...

 

[Kaleb]

We need to run at 0% for 2 turns to get Lit. We will run out of gold this turn so next 2 turns should be at 0%.

Whilst doing this we could swap the shared cottage with the mine. Pav can used the shared tile instead of its farm. This will slow growth a liitle in Pav but I think that's ok as it was going to use unimproved tiles when it grew anyway.

If we do this for 2 turns Haz will get an extra 10. I can't recall exactly but that may be enough to get lighthouse before GL and also hopefully won't delay GL build time as Haz will reach pop 8 slower.

I have yet to test this though, could be it doesn't work and is a bad idea...

 

[Kaleb]

I haven't been able to test this week but I'll have time to test my previous post tonight. If this doesn't delay GL build are people happy for me to do this in the turn?

Regarding working cow, are we in favour of this? It means moving the worker onto the forest S of the cow this turn.

The last point is what to build in Pavlodar. I don't think we will be able to get a Great Prophet before our next GSci if we don't build the Jewish Missionary for Aktau next. I'll try and see if it is possible, but if it isn't are people ok with us doing the JMis next?

After that a confu missionary would be good for Shymkent, but we've got time to discuss that still.

Ben Hur will be healed as well, I suggest he goes out to hunt that warrior to get the promotion.