Taking a break

ls612

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This has been really a long time coming, but it was really Thunderbrd's new update this weekend that led me to making this decision.

I have seen C2C go on the wrong path for a while now, with ever more complexity in the name of 'realism' ruining the fun of the mod and poor coding without any review being added in massive updates causing problems, I can't honestly say that I 'like' C2C anymore. I've tried to push it back onto what I see as a better path but my efforts in this regard have for the most part been failures. The same issues continue to plague the mod today that plagued it in December, when I considered forking.

I'm not considering that now because I do not believe that I as a team of 1 could stay motivated long enough to undo the changes I dislike and reform the mod along the lines of fun and simplicity.

I joined the team because C2C was the natural continuation of AND, which was a great mod at the time which knew how to say within reasonable limits and provide interesting gameplay without too much fluff. I've seen C2C change in the past year and a half into exactly what I wanted to avoid in civ; repetition and half-finished mechanics which aren't well-polished.

I'm not exactly certain what I'll do going forward. I'll stay around these forums and lend my opinion on C2C, as well as help out people generally in Civ 4 modding, but there is no major project for civ 4 now that really draws my attention. I've also taken on some responsibilities with the Modiki and perhaps other site content, so that provides another compelling reason to stay in CFC. Maybe I'll go and develop some modcomps or work on something for CiV. I really don't know right now. I will still play both MP games to the best of my abilities.

I hope everyone will understand and respect this decision and the reasons behind it, even if they don't agree with it.
 
Welcome to my world, ls612! I've modded and I've pretty much stopped my coding for Civ. Let me tell you now that modding for CiV is a HUGE mistake. I mean, CiV is why I don't code for any Civ game anymore. (Well, python is a b!tch for me so CIV is out of the question) And so naturally with CiV's broken DLL exposure to Lua, nothing too complex can be accomplished. Ever. If I ever return to coding for any Civ-esque game again, it'll most likely be a private project like what Koshling is thinking of splitting off to do. (You know that Indie game he wants to develop to break free from the terrible perimeters set by Firaxis' games.)

Anywho. I pretty much stick around to give feedback, ideas and the such. Occasionally I give artwork too, but not much has been needed since Afforess gave me a list of art resources I filled a while ago. Besides, I have quite a few other projects I'm filling out which includes a Skyrim mod, a self-employed indie game and a book (The indie game and the book are two separate times of the same timeline.) Of course, I take my time on my projects with no deadlines in sight for any of them.
 
Welcome to my world, ls612! I've modded and I've pretty much stopped my coding for Civ. Let me tell you now that modding for CiV is a HUGE mistake. I mean, CiV is why I don't code for any Civ game anymore. (Well, python is a b!tch for me so CIV is out of the question) And so naturally with CiV's broken DLL exposure to Lua, nothing too complex can be accomplished. Ever. If I ever return to coding for any Civ-esque game again, it'll most likely be a private project like what Koshling is thinking of splitting off to do. (You know that Indie game he wants to develop to break free from the terrible perimeters set by Firaxis' games.)

Anywho. I pretty much stick around to give feedback, ideas and the such. Occasionally I give artwork too, but not much has been needed since Afforess gave me a list of art resources I filled a while ago. Besides, I have quite a few other projects I'm filling out which includes a Skyrim mod, a self-employed indie game and a book (The indie game and the book are two separate times of the same timeline.)

Well the DLL source for it was released last november, so I'd disagree with that analysis for now. From what I understand you can't do as much stuff with the lower-level engine interfaces like you can do here, but new higher-level mechanics are doable.

If we could get AXXXXE off the ground I'd love to help with that as well, but I just don't see that happening as xanhou has been gone for well over a month now and no one else is willing to touch graphics programming. Maybe I'm too pessimistic on this one but we'll wait and see.
 
Well the DLL source for it was released last november, so I'd disagree with that analysis for now. From what I understand you can't do as much stuff with the lower-level engine interfaces like you can do here, but new higher-level mechanics are doable.

If we could get AXXXXE off the ground I'd love to help with that as well, but I just don't see that happening as xanhou has been gone for well over a month now and no one else is willing to touch graphics programming. Maybe I'm too pessimistic on this one but we'll wait and see.

Is that so? Well despite that, I must say that CiV modding on those pages seem rather dead compared to its' predecessor games.

Graphics programming? You mean letting the system interpret bone placement and terrain definitions? Yea, good luck with that one. I -could- do it if I took the time to learn it, but for me I like making graphics or coding logic. I don't mix. Not right now at least. Actually come to think of it, I'm actually doing that right now for the 2D graphics of my indie game. But I'm using Lua with the Corona SDK (Which btw is an awesome 2D starting ground. It's indefinitely free for game/app development until you want to sell something - unlike most others where you need to pay to even touch the program.) But yea, right now I'm coding in the recognition for when mobile devices turn so everything turns portrait from letter format.
 
On one hand I am sad to see you leave on the other hand I am not.
While you, much like Joseph or other more conservative players tend to favour oldschool simple and "pure" civ play, others like Thunderbrd and myself think that realism is a lot of fun. So the progressive side we represent has to fight a lot to push a little. Sometimes the little pushing may throw everything out of balance and that can be frustrating. I don't see it with Thunderbrds last update though and although it might not be the best way coded (I can't say anything about that), pleading your leaving on that feels sleazy to me. I, for example disagreed on a lot of topics with you lately, too so you may as well name me.
But honestly, although I disagree on all these topics, I don't want you to leave because the strength of C2C is its diversity and the driving mechanism is the complexity that is the result of the diversity. C2C was founded because Afforess, may god rest his soul, didn't want to push forward. But look where we are now!!!
All colours you see now are dark? Well you may have lost some battles but you fought! If you don't fight you have lost already! There will be better days to come --- and imagine Afforess lurking in, downloading a recent copy of C2C and playing it in secret, couldn't he have fun, at least a bit, although he disagreed with the path that was taken back then?

When I argued about banking systems systematic fraud and failures in 2000, nobody would listen, now its common sense and people are fine with criticizing holy capitalism [well the lesson was also learned in the 30s of last century (new deal) but forgotten in late 70s by the larger populations; thats when when the neolibs saw their chances to take over once more promoting unregulated turbocap but thats another story]...

So come on, cheer up mate and don't take it too hard. After all, lets make the most controversial settings game options when we can and let's also compromise from time to time (but not too often, please! :D )
 
will you continue the multiplayer project?
 
So i take it then your not going to fix the mistakes in the "Focused Traits" then? and not be a member of the team anymore is that what you are saying? Or am i reading this wrong?

Those errors from what I can tell are a bug in the implementation of the underlying XML Replacements system somewhere.

As for being on the team, I may come back at some point in the future if things turn around but for now I'll certainly be taking a break for the foreseeable future.

And people gloating publicly about my leaving doesn't surprise me, but it still isn't nice and if it continues or gets more severe I will report it.
 
@ls612
If it means anything I had a bast modding with you. :beer:

Yes, we've all been basting... Wait, what?:crazyeye:

@ls612
Eh, I don't take that as gloating. I take it more as 'I'm sad that you won't be with us. However, I'm glad you are moving on with what -you- want.'

But it might just be my optimism. ;)
 
See DRJ & SO's above posts.

What the HECK are you talking about, i didnt say ONE thing that was bad or as you say gloating, that is purely absurd! Dont take your frustration out on someone like me, wrong person to mess with.

I did a one statement BECAUSE i didnt want ALL the other parts of it in the quote and taking up more room, JEEZ!! Thats why i wrote et et et, or etc etc etc, either way meaning more was there DUH!! You need to stop your name calling here buddy. That was purely uncalled for, talk about talking to moderators on a person!! Thats TOTAL BS. I will stop here, darn i am teed off now
I was being polite.

Yes, we've all been basting... Wait, what?:crazyeye:

@ls612
Eh, I don't take that as gloating. I take it more as 'I'm sad that you won't be with us. However, I'm glad you are moving on with what -you- want.'

B I N G O

Those errors from what I can tell are a bug in the implementation of the underlying XML Replacements system somewhere.

So your not fixing them then?
 
See DRJ & SO's above posts.


@ls612
Eh, I don't take that as gloating. I take it more as 'I'm sad that you won't be with us. However, I'm glad you are moving on with what -you- want.'

But it might just be my optimism. ;)

When I started writing my previous post I was a little angry because you blamed Thunderbrd for making you leave, it's true. But then I realized, as I layed out in the secound half of the post that there was more to you than just being someone annoying (as I must have been to you as well).

I really respect your coding skills and although I don't always like the way you use them for the future of the mod as I liked to see it, I nevertheless believe you ought to be a big part of it.
Not only today I saw you being friendly towards new people answering their questions patiently and gently.
You have people that actually like the way you design and who would miss your progress to what they like better. They need you and your ways.
So as my post continued I tried to rhetorically convince you to stay, not gloating at all! Everything else would be a phyrric victory at least. Less controversy when you're gone? Sure. Less fun? Even more so. Innovation needs poles and polemicizing is not always wrong (as I said it can push some things forward), just fatigueing from time to time - for both sides.

So, I wouldn't dare to tell you not take a break if you really want & need to, I just say if you do don't stay away too long, even better relax a bit and don't leave at all. I respect you. Maybe read my previous post twice?

I think SO also refered to this part of the message, he just didn't want to quote it all!
 
I have been a lurker and participator on projects that have lasted a long time so I think I have some useful insight and advice for those who consider leaving, forking, or going on temporary hiatus / project sabbaticals, so please hear me out.

1. We are all here to find (and create) the best possible Civilization game we can.

We come here to Civfanatics together, to discover, explore, and create the Best of CIV we can, so we can get a chance to play that ultimate game experience.

Caveman2Cosmos is the best representation (so far) of exploring all of those ideas to carry us to the next level. It started with CIV, CIV IV, and proceeded to ROM -Rise of Mankind, AND -A New Dawn, and now on to our hopeful and promising Caveman2Cosmos with the purpose of become the next level CIVILIZATION experience. I believe the C2C is our best developed foundation, and most strategic launching point for us to collectively reach the Next Level of Civilization that we all truly want and secretly desire. And I believe that as long as we share that goal, that we should continue to seek it and explore together, we are a lot more likely to find that dream, that goal together, than we will wandering alone.

It is extremely rare to find a project and a purpose we can all agree on, even in part, as we all feel strongly about what we love. Everyone, and I mean Everyone will continue to have a different view of what Civilization should be. It is a challenge to stay together for more than a moment, and to challenge ourselves to see things through. But it is worth it, because we ultimately want to find an even better experience.

2. We are here together - I argue that we are explorers of similar territory, and that we are united by our desire to explore something better, and therefore we will find more of what we want to find together, than we will by being frustrated by our differences and giving up. It is our challenge (and the challenge of humanity) to find a way to collaborate to find the best of all of us, and to do that we must embrace our diversity, and overcome our differences so that we can travel further together. In our way C2C and Civilization represent the challenges of the civilizations we play in C2C and CIV, can we build a team and civilization to explore time? and can we do that together to guarantee that it is the best CIV experience? It is a challenge to keep CIV (and C2C) improving, but worth doing so. And it is challenge of finding a way to explore together, in a way we can do so freely, yet together, so we can share in the experience the best of our individual and collaborative efforts, without wearing us out, or down. In essence we need each other to keep going, so we can help reach what we couldn't alone, by ourselves.

And if we let the opportunity pass us, we are left with the limited efforts that companies and the few motivated individuals leave us with. Do you really want to be left trapped with your own uncompleted ideas and dreams? Or do you want to find a way, to come together to see our collective best shine as brightly as possible?

3. I for one think that Caveman2Cosmos, represents that blue moon, a rare moment in time and collaboration, and continuation of AND, ROM, and CIV that we all desire. And that is why I think we should all continue to work together to try to improve it. All ideas are (mostly) worth exploring (to different degrees), and all of them should be put to the litmus test of being challenged, not to water them down or eliminate them, but to improve them. We want to keep moving, and we want everyone to keep participating in a way they feel comfortable, and we all want to keep C2C on course so we can reach the next level. (and that is Multi-Maps / Galactic Era in the next year). And I believe we all want to overcome the things we don't like, instead of giving up, on something that can be even greater!

Caveman2Cosmos is on a (more or less) balanced path between the purest, streamlined and improved Civilization game experience, and the unbound and limitless exploration of what Civilization can become if we dare to consider it. Sometimes C2C goes 'off the rails' or falls short, but it is in all of our hands to keep it moving in the right direction together - towards our ideal version of the best playable CIV game. I completely believe that C2C can be both a CIV+ easy to play, fast and fun improved CIV experience, and a exploration of the best of what our unlimited ideas have to offer, including ideas beyond CIV. It is the ultimate challenge to reach our goal together, and see our collaborative dream to become real, as well as to continue to enjoy pursuing improving it.

4. C2C is (hopefully) aimed at becoming the near ultimate collaboration of great and good - ideas, people, and modding which brings CIV to an unrestrained evolution to the next level of what the game CIVILIZATION can become, with combining all of our best efforts. (But also not letting them get in our way.)
Like Civilization became more than just a strategy game, that allows you to explore building a civilization, I see that Caveman2Cosmos can be both a great improved CIV experience that let's you explore ideas well past what strategy, history, 4x gaming, and simulated history already has to offer. Let's not let exploration divide us, but to unite us behind improving the sandbox of C2C so that we aren't limited, but freer to explore. I see C2C as giving us the opportunity for us to create the next CIV, to create our own version of CIV 6 / what CIV 5 could have been with our involvement, and for us to all have a say in making our civilization gaming experience even better. We should never let something stop us from trying.

I for one, want us to have the freedom to explore all of our ideas, while not limiting our gaming experience and driving people away. I want everyone to want to stay and contribute to explore our collaborative dream of making a better Civ, and I want a chance to be able to play that ultimate Civ/C2C game with you guys! If all you can offer is your voice, your advice, your opinion, and your best effort, we want to know what you see and don't see, so we can figure all this out together. We need everyone's voice, eyes, and care to see clearly. If we can't or don't have time to mod, then we should take a moment to advise, or add to the discussion, so we can help it keep moving. And we should always be willing to consider and listen. Please, Let's all get over and differences and work together to overcome our challenges. (If we don't stand strong together for something we believe in, then we are left to fall for anything.. that remains.)
I respect all of you for caring.

Past all the challenges, obstacles, and differences, we can see our dreams shining through. We see what C2C could be at it's greatest. What C2C and Civilization could become.
I invite everyone to focus on our common ground and our shared dream, so that that we are united by our possibilities, not divided by our frustrations. So we can keep moving together.
I am positive that if we keep caring, we can overcome any of our challenges, and we can all add our best voice to the evolving symphony that is C2C, the best Civ we can share. We just have to be patient and care enough to see it through.
I can't wait to see what we can dream up and create next!

Please consider seeing C2C (and the promise of AND) through our challenges to the next level!
I can see how great that our game can be!! Can you??
Let's honor our greatest shared opportunity - Caveman2Cosmos - the promise of CivNext!
 
See DRJ & SO's above posts.

@ls612,
As much as DRJ and I have tangled in the past even I did not take his post as in anyway derogatory or demeaning. Nor SO's either. I beleive DRJ was expressing mixed emotions over your announcement. And SO was just looking for clarity. This has to be a shock.

Frustration though does color and confuse the scene and mind (reaction) when big decisions like this come to a head.

I too hope that after a bit that you will continue to help, when you can, on C2C. But... at your stage in life and college coming soon, your time here would be limited anyway. That is just real life.

I do want to Thank You for your work done here and your willingness, towards me, to listen.

Be Blessed.

JosEPh :)
 
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