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Taking Requests: Fixing crappy civs

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Creation & Customization' started by Evalis, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. tokala

    tokala Emperor

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    While the Aztec UU is meh, the UB is pretty good imo ;) That 15% gets really strong with large lategame cities, as it amplifies the total food income and can lead to a pretty big food surplus.

    I agree with the Jaguar being more flavour than useful, though if you mange to keep them alive through the ages (and upgrades), that "cannibalistic" perk gets really useful, too.
    Small buff would be giving them jungle+forest combat bonus, drastic change would be to go the Civ4 route and shift them to the swordsman slot as a resourceless, understrength UU.

    Edit: Might be a better idea to do this for the Mohawk warrior, it's pretty weird to have some warclub wielding unarmoured warriors requiring iron :crazyeye:,especially with the Iroquios intro text emphasizing how valiantly they fought off technologically far superior foes :lol:

    The Iroquois might need a buff more urgently than the Aztec, the AI Hiawatha doing mostly fine is very likely a function of his personality, not the Civ traits ;)
     
  2. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    Well the aztec routinely perform poorly, so I'd like to find a way to help them out a bit. If you have suggestions for the Iroquois I'm open to them, but I'm certain it's not just his personality. Much like Harun, his starting location is rigged.
     
  3. Cincinnatus C.

    Cincinnatus C. Chieftain

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    Rereading the OP, I realize that it's generally traits and not units that we are looking for here, so here are a couple potential ones:

    America - The American Dream
    Specialists produce +1 :gold: and +1 :culture:. This a) reflects the American idea of talent and ingenuity (specialists) being critical to the success of the nation and b) makes America more likely to take the Freedom tree that it really makes the most sense taking.
    Also perhaps buff Manifest Destiny by making the 25% gold discount valid on all purchases (and fix stacking with mercantilism etc).

    Iroquois I wouldn't, for example, expand the road movement to outside of cultural borders; I'd give them another buff like, say, +35% combat strength when fighting a unit from a more advanced tech or era, or maybe forest growing naturally in his own borders (I think there's a mod for this) so that the lands he takes could become more suitable for the Iroquois than Caty's tundra gems. Something like that.

    I'd also like to see some of the more powerful abilities weakened a little but at the same time made more interesting and less just out and out bonuses. On that note:
    France: Change Ancien Régime Napoleonic Code - Puppet States produce +2 :culture: per turn and generate 25% less unhappiness. Fits Napoleon somewhat better and is a little less powerful (theoretically) while still allowing puppetmaster culture wins (which, again, is what Napoleon was trying to do, pretty much)
    China: Change Art of War to All Under Heaven (Or Tianxia ideally; would be Mandate of Heaven but that's a social policy) - +50% :culture: (after the discovery of philosophy) and no unhappiness in the capital, something like that. I feel like China should be an all-rounder civ, so something to complement its other strengths (UB for science/economy, Zhuge-Nu for war, and this for a culture/happiness boost)
     
  4. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    I like the bonus on specialists for america. I could certainly remove the +1 sight in exchange for it. The 25% discount on all purchases is a definate no however, as there is no way to prevent it from stacking with both mercatilism and big ben. 15% would be the highest I would go and I already gave that to Sulieman.

    France is powerful? Try playing sonhai if you want puppet cultural victories. France's trait is pretty meh. 25% reduction in puppet states isn't doable as the happiness is combined and there is no distinction between puppets or non-puppets. Only occupied or non-occupied.

    The china thing.. might be doable.. I'll have to look into it. Mind you they are currently really good and I'm not sure how happy people would be with a nerf, but it's interesting.
     
  5. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    Uploaded the American Dream to modhub. Gave you kudos for the idea ^^. I'm pretty sure the idea for china is impossible as culture has no yeild type.. and a 'modifier' for type based on tech isn't possible for any yield. The iroquos idea IS possible, but it would require a massive unitclass overhaul, which would base unitclasses on era rather than type. EI: I could make melee stronger against gunpowder and gunpowder stronger against armored.. but I couldn't make anything stronger to any type of horse unit regardless of it's tech level.
     
  6. Vordeo

    Vordeo King

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    Pretty much this.

    Now, I've read elsewhere that the culture you get from kills is essentially the strength of the opponent halved, rounded up (so Brutes w/ 5 str would give you 3 culture, etc.). I'd definitely have that scale up with eras. So if a kill would give you 3 culture in ancient era, double that for classical, triple it with medieval, etc.

    Still worse than the French ability, but much cooler.

    Also, Harun's UA is trash. Make it +10% trade route income if possible.
     
  7. Necro-

    Necro- Chieftain

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    what about for the zeros, cutting cost to say 1/3rd, and making them kamikaze fighters against anything non-air?
     
  8. Vordeo

    Vordeo King

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    I really like this one. A civ focused on specialists (like Siam is focused on city states) sounds really good.

    Think America's ability is fine as is, mind you, but I like the idea.
     
  9. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    I might take a look at harun. And yes I planned on buffing his income from trade routes. But the fix is pretty minor. Giving him +2 to trade routes accomplishes the same +10% in most cases and is better starting off. However I want to run into him in a few more games before I do an overhaul. Especially considering the couple games I played with him set me in some pretty rigged locations, (2 gold, 1 silver, multiple gold and silver nearby) it's possilbe the map script is his balancing act. The trouble with boosting the culture gain from kills is that it doesn't really help them any. They have to win.. in order to.. win? I'd like to give them something warlike that's very unique. But I'm at a loss for ideas. I could easily just give them all a +20% combat bonus, but that's not exactly a very unique mechanic. Anyhoo keep the ideas coming. I'm sure at least one f them will be golden =D

    By the way I HAVE played through with the Aztecs and it was indeed half their strength. 9 culture from a knight *sigh*. I killed like one every 3 turns. I already had 40+ culture per turn.. so that was a whopping 8 extra percent! whooboy! As a side note I like america too. Their trait is often overlooked, (you can buy the first ring for roughly the same cost as a monument) but I really liked the concept too. So they got in ;)
     
  10. evrett37

    evrett37 Prince

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    The Ottomons have great units and their UA is really powerful if you know how to exploit it. You wouldnt balk at it if it said "+25 gold per turn plus +10 inf with a city state of your choice". That is the result if you have a boat in the water next to a barb camp.

    The Iroquois need better units maybe same with the Aztec.
     
  11. Trickster7135

    Trickster7135 Prince

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    Aztec: this might be too complicated to mod right now, but how about their ability is that whenever an enemy unit is killed, culture gain for that turn is doubled. Killing more than one unit per turn wouldn't increase the effect. If that is too powerful, just have it as a +100% culture bonus (doubling the base, not total, culture).
     
  12. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    @erverette then you are a better player than I, because I certainly don't know how to accomplish that.

    @trickster if by 100% you mean double the culture they get from kills that is easily accomplished... the trouble is that the computer wouldn't be able to utilize it because their only UU is a peice of garbage, the computer is terrible at offence, and sadly the AI for the aztec tells them to war. Killing one unit for double culture would be good, but you are right, there doesn't seem to be a way to program that right now.
     
  13. tokala

    tokala Emperor

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    You should perhaps clarify what exactly you try to accomplish, balance the Civs for AI play or for the control of the human player. With the abysmal state of the AI, balance for AI play will be most likely a futile exercise, and might provide a moving target if patches will be forthcoming :D

    Those are not nearly the same goals, as "good" AI performance is pretty much "survive in a reasonable shape", while good for human play means providing traits that can be leveraged into achieving a victory condition more efficient than for other civs.

    And for survival, Hiawatha is certainly better equipped than Monty ;)
     
  14. Evalis

    Evalis Prince

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    It's really for both. The human 'fun' factor has to exist in the change. So it has to be something you couldn't easily pull out of somewhere else and has some sort of new leveraged goal. Sulieman aiming for big ben and buying his way to victory, america beelining to freedom and stacking every city with specialist buildings.. The strength of the trait however needs to usuable by the AI. Giving a bonus based on killing enemy empires doesn't mean anything unless they already get a trait that helps them succeed in that area. However since giving +x% combat bonus doesn't really meet the unique fun factor criteria I'm loathe to make such an update. Even building rate doesn't help much.. I was considering giving them a free unit for every city they own but that might be too powerful.
     
  15. Dave Lawson

    Dave Lawson Chieftain

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    By the very nature of the Aztec UA, the AI is going to be horrible at taking advantage because the AI is, well, horrible. I love the notion of a civ that prospers by being at war. For that reason alone I love playing the Songhai. You always have more irons in the fire.

    As for implementing a +100% culture boost upon killing an enemy, I think you might just be able to achieve this with a bit of shenanigans. Imagine you create a custom building for the aztecs, called the Sacrificial Altar. It costs no maintenance, and gives 100% bonus to culture, either across the nation or across the city. I'm assuming there's an event hook for killing an enemy unit. Upon this happening, check that the killer has some special promotion. If so create this building in the player's capital. At the start of the player's turn, remove this building from the capital.

    It's a lot of theorycraft, but I suspect it could be made to work.
     

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