Tancredo: If attacked, bomb Mecca!

[drachasor]

I didnt mention terrorism in my comment now did I?

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing what the thread is about. In fact I am sure you were talking about attacks on the US by Muslim (and perhaps other) extremists.

Maybe you should start a new thread if you are talking about something else.

 

[C~G]

Actually, this has worked quite well in the past. It is just that, for you, it is much easier to come up with examples of how it didn't work, because those religions/groups are still around to be pointed at. The ones that were destroyed cannot be pointed to.

Are you saying that Islam and muslims should be completely wiped out in order this to work and that west "wins"?

 

[drachasor]

Actually, this has worked quite well in the past. It is just that, for you, it is much easier to come up with examples of how it didn't work, because those religions/groups are still around to be pointed at. The ones that were destroyed cannot be pointed to.

What you are referring to is Genocide. Getting rid of holy sites doesn't get rid of a religion. Getting rid of people or systematically eradicating a culture gets rid of a religion. Which one are you advocating?

Or do you actually have an example where merely destroying holy sites also destroyed a religion?

-Drachasor

 

[drachasor]

Like I said, you can't convince people to give up the Qur'an claiming the Bible is more true. You can convince them that the Bible is nicer (and many people will opt for 'nicer' given the opportunity, really, since most people like nicer lives), or you can convince them that the Qur'an is not true enough to blow yourself up for.

I don't think it is easy to convince people the Bible is nicer. As I have mentioned, there are a lot of nasty things in it. I think you can convince people, and they can convince themselves, that it is better to ignore the nasty parts of the Qur'an and focus on the nicer parts. That's what the vast majority of Christians do with the Bible.

 

[The Yankee]

Getting rid of the Kaaba will not destroy Islam much like the Babylonians and Romans destroying the Temple Mount did not destroy Judaism. In fact, it is something that is remembered well within the Jewish religion.

 

[El_Machinae]

Getting rid of terrorism requires a one-two-punch, followed by a knockout. Education and reducing poverty will help reduce the number of whackjobs. The knockout happens when you don't let terrorism disproportionately affect you.

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't think it is easy to convince people the Bible is nicer. As I have mentioned, there are a lot of nasty things in it. I think you can convince people, and they can convince themselves, that it is better to ignore the nasty parts of the Qur'an and focus on the nicer parts. That's what the vast majority of Christians do with the Bible.

Well, I know of some converts from Islam to Christianity, because they felt that Christianity had a more loving message. I mostly agree, actually. But I think I know of more people who gave up Islam for atheism, because they were disgusted with the violence and ignorance promoted in Islam.

You cannot convince an educated Muslim that the Bible is 'more true', because it's not. So the Bible Belt ambassadors that are being sent there don't really have much to counter the Qur'an with.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I don't think the answer has much to do with the scriptures anyways. Every religion has a lot of doctrine and practice that doesn't come from its scriptures, even though a lot of religions don't admit this. Education is key, but not necessarily education having anything to do with the Qur'an or the Bible.

 

[MobBoss]

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing what the thread is about. In fact I am sure you were talking about attacks on the US by Muslim (and perhaps other) extremists.

Maybe you should start a new thread if you are talking about something else.

/jeez. Here is the problem with you interjecting yourself into the middle of a conversation. EL_M made a comment about education and bombs. I replied to that comment with one of my own.

Now here you come and try to add something to it that wasnt even there to begin with.

/sheesh.

 

[Provolution]

The real challenge for the War on Terror, where Bush failed by stumbling into Iraq, is to prioritize Afghanistan and Pakistan, to root out their infrastructure.
They also need to get rid of the warlords in the Kabul government producing the Heroin.

Musharraf did the right thing with the Red Mosque. Again, I am no fan of religious freaks, and I frankly enjoyed the assault in Waco Texas. I was not surprised by the Jones Town Massacre. All apocalyptic or totalitarian sects must be persecuted and destroyed, whether they are American "patriots" (like Oklahoma City bombing), Islamist Fundamentalists, Revolutionary Communists, Nazis and Christian sects.

These groups are the modern worlds swath, against basic civic conditions, and as long as they represent a physical threat and they threaten our civic rights, they should be obliterated, persecuted and if they survive the fight, put in jail for life. If they die before the sentenced is served, they can as well be buried in jail as well, to serve their sentence in afterlife as well (since they believe in it). I think it is high time to make a general statement on these groups, and not attack Islamism, Americanism, Westernism, Modernism and in general attack our global structure. The problem is in these fringe groups that disrupt our evolution with the silent/vocal support of confused opposition groups.

 

[MobBoss]

Think about who the more violent of the "anti-Islam" ideologues are.

Hindus?

There's not 100% overlap, but the people who're causing most of the problem are people who think that violence is the first solution.

Again, I dont think anyone is advocating a 'violence first' style solution. I think what is being discussed is a reaction to continued attacks against us.

And there's a heavy correlation between this type of thinking and thinking that the Bible is literally true (or at least, these thinkers certainly spurn education and intelligence).

Again, can you please provide me with some names of christians who think violence should be done upon Muslims first? And again, I utterly disagree that they spurn education and intelligence. Thats just a false accusation meant to inflame others thoughts in its own right.

Clearly it's easier to clean up one's own house than the neighbour's house, but half the trick to preventing a holy war is to convince both sides that there's nothing 'holy' to war over.

Ah, the athiest "there are no true religions" arguement to peace.

And cleaning up one's own house is part of a solution: because it's easier to export education when your education is also true.

Gotta love it. Its our fault terrorists attack us so we should change in order to appeal to them to no longer do violence against us.

It's a war not only of ideologies, but also a war of religion. Discrediting the source of the religion (through education) will have the best long-term benefits.

Or it could just increase the gulf between our cultures even further. I dont think they are going to change how they educate their children, do you?

 

[Red Door]

It might have solved their problems, if that is what you're asking.

No, your logic just says that Islam had the "right" to destroy the foundation of Christianity, which validates, to terrorists, their suicide bombings and acts of terrorism.

 

[El_Machinae]

El_Machinae: "We should increase our educational levels, because there are serious deficits on both sides"
Other guy: "Nuh uh, our ignorance is just fine."



Seriously, what's wrong with my suggestion of trying to reduce the ignorance on the part of the Western fundie movement? Some people will argue anything

 

[SonicX]

Everyone over 40 years old is ignorant, their brains don't cope with change very well anymore. Just a physiological fact.
And the poeple who run the countries are way over that age

 

[MobBoss]

El_Machinae: "We should increase our educational levels, because there are serious deficits on both sides"
Other guy: "Nuh uh, our ignorance is just fine."

Well, I dont share your opinion about western ignorance.

Seriously, what's wrong with my suggestion of trying to reduce the ignorance on the part of the Western fundie movement?

Because you largely view people as ignorant merely because they have faith in their religion. That is an extremely bigoted view point in my opinion and brings nothing forward as a reasonable answer to the problem.

Some people will argue anything

On that you are quite right.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, I dont share your opinion about western ignorance.

Of course you don't! You've got an inside look into the problem, but I'm not the least bit surprised you don't notice it.

Look, you want the violent Muslims to rethink their priorities, and maybe embrace Christianity instead, right? That's swell. But they'll be able to rebuff that request with their Imams saying "Christians believe in a Global Flood! They're unintelligent and willfully ignorant."

And it's partially true, because there are a vast number of Westerners who're wrong due to their faith causing ignorance. But the problem is more serious than that, because there are swaths of Westerners who actively embrace ignorance. And there's a heavy correlation between being a fundie and embracing willful ignorance.

In order to fix a problem, you have to understand it. And willfully ignoring the cause and source of problems will allow nothing but escalations in the problems.

You'll never convince 'them' that your side is more right if your side is obviously wrong. And so, the education has to start at home and then be shipped abroad when available. What does Fundie America have to say in rebuttal of Harun Yahya's textbooks on Intelligent Design? Nothing, they have no viable responses, nothing to counter the subsidised ignorance that Saudi Arabia is exporting.

That is an extremely bigoted view point in my opinion and brings nothing forward as a reasonable answer to the problem.

I can't fix it, or at least, I can't do very much to fix it. I was never around in a church when they got an 'expert' to come in during a sponsored seminar to discredit evolution, global warming, economic disparity issues, etc. We needed people in the churches to actively stomp on the idiocy instead of allowing it to spread. And to do that, we need the church-goers to become more educated, proactively

 

[drachasor]

/jeez. Here is the problem with you interjecting yourself into the middle of a conversation. EL_M made a comment about education and bombs. I replied to that comment with one of my own.

Now here you come and try to add something to it that wasnt even there to begin with.

/sheesh.

He was talking about education in the context of working against terrorism, and in particular Islamic extremism. Your response was about this comment, and you said you thought bombs could work better than education; you said you thought history provided examples for this. I asked you for examples, and you gave examples from WWII, which was a war between nations, and so it isn't applicable to a struggle against international terrorism. Again, how is bombing anyone going to stop terrorism?

In short, I didn't add anything to the context. Maybe you just forgot about it. Sure, El_M made a comment about Russia and China, but you yourself said that they weren't applicable comparisons. How is Japan or Germany somehow applicable in the context of this? Do you think that you can stop Islamic Extremism with bombs, do you think that something with no leadership like Islamic Extremism and no home nation can be eradicated with bombs? That's not like our situation in WWII, so your example isn't applicable. I am also assuming the main problem we all have with Islamic Extremism is the terrorism which is spawns (though not all terrorists are Islamic Extremists by any means). Were you referring to something else regarding bombing? If so I don't think you were clear (and I did read the first page and the last couple pages before posting).

-Drachasor

 

[drachasor]

Because you largely view people as ignorant merely because they have faith in their religion. That is an extremely bigoted view point in my opinion and brings nothing forward as a reasonable answer to the problem.

When someone believes in something because of faith that violates a known, scientific truth, how is that not ignorance?

When someone believes in something because of faith that violates a known, accepted, moral truth, how is that not a form of ignorance? (e.g. killing people is ok if they happen to merely believe something different than you).

These sorts of narrow-minded and wrong views ARE a problem that is solved by better education and more enlightened views. Just like the Inquisition was wrong and eventually lost out to a more educated and enlightened nations and people.

-Drachasor

 

[MobBoss]

Of course you don't! You've got an inside look into the problem, but I'm not the least bit surprised you don't notice it.

Classic. Accuse of your opponent not seeing the problem because he is 'part' of the problem.

Surely you can do better than that. You are an atheist. I hardly think your view of religious fundamentalists is going to be anywhere near anything considered balanced.

Look, you want the violent Muslims to rethink their priorities, and maybe embrace Christianity instead, right?

No. I would just simply settle with them not flying planes into our buildings thank you very much.

And there's a heavy correlation between being a fundie and embracing willful ignorance.

And again, I disagree. I think you take the very few Fred Phelps of the world and cast this picture that all fundies are like that. They are not.

In order to fix a problem, you have to understand it. And willfully ignoring the cause and source of problems will allow nothing but escalations in the problems.

The problem that I see is that jihadists want to kill people. You think western ignorance has something to do with this...I dont.

You'll never convince 'them' that your side is more right if your side is obviously wrong. And so, the education has to start at home and then be shipped abroad when available.

The problem with this is who gets to decide what is 'right'? The atheists?

Lets get back to reality for a bit because we both know what you suggest is never, ever, going to happen.

The point you continually miss is that unless we embrace the version of 'right' that the jihadists consider 'right' then we are still the enemy. Regardless of our faith, or lack of it.

Its going to take more than some kind of educational osmosis group-think to keep jihadists from waging war against us. Sorry, but thats just the truth.

What does Fundie America have to say in rebuttal of Harun Yahya's textbooks on Intelligent Design? Nothing, they have no viable responses, nothing to counter the subsidised ignorance that Saudi Arabia is exporting.

What makes you think all of fundie america believes in ID?

I mean really.

 

[MobBoss]

He was talking about education in the context of working against terrorism, and in particular Islamic extremism. Your response was about this comment, and you said you thought bombs could work better than education; you said you thought history provided examples for this. I asked you for examples, and you gave examples from WWII, which was a war between nations, and so it isn't applicable to a struggle against international terrorism. Again, how is bombing anyone going to stop terrorism?

If it came down to bombing mecca or medina the conflict would have long been in the 'war between nations' phase.

Wars eventually end. The US-phillipine war in the pacific had its share of terrorist like attacks and massacres. It eventually ended. So did the terrorist style attacks. They ended because we finally broke their will to conduct such attacks. Through such actions as 'bombing'.

That's not like our situation in WWII, so your example isn't applicable

Actually, our current day situation is very much like that in the Phillipine war where we also fought against Muslim insurgents.

He who forgets history is doomed to repeat it.

When someone believes in something because of faith that violates a known, scientific truth, how is that not ignorance?

I would say its being in denial, not being ignorant. But the way you talk about such people you would think they are a huge majority....they are not. They are an extreme minority in our society.

When someone believes in something because of faith that violates a known, accepted, moral truth, how is that not a form of ignorance? (e.g. killing people is ok if they happen to merely believe something different than you).

Again, that is not how ignorance is defined. Morality is relative. What I may find moral you may not, and vice versa.

And btw, in Christianity, killing people has never, ever been ok, merely because they believe in something different than you.

These sorts of narrow-minded and wrong views ARE a problem that is solved by better education and more enlightened views. Just like the Inquisition was wrong and eventually lost out to a more educated and enlightened nations and people.

We are not living in a modern day inquisition - although some arguement could me made that perhaps Islam is going through a similiar transition like Christianity did during that time.