Viva_Chingon
Condition 1
I currently favor the work boat >worker open, support the idea of maximizing chopping yields by possibly flagging some forest tiles for a specific, post-math, project and of exploration (i.e. resource driven) based research.
Team 3 Starting Position
- Thread starter Sullla
- Start date
Ronnie1
Deity
I really see only 2 options...Worker 1st or WB 1st.
If we go worker 1st...I would follow with another worker until the wheat is improved, and then switch to WB so we grow to size 2 very quickly. Finish 2nd worker and then build warriors to grow to size 4, while using the chop into settler while growing technique.
I will sim this opening and then post the results.
Krill
Deity
Main problem with worker first (and you'll see this the first time you try and sim it): you improve the wheat and then the worker sits around for 4/5 turns doing nothing, and it makes less gold (significantly less due to financial).
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
work boat->worker for me.
lots of food, lots of gold, gets the worker faster.
lots of food, lots of gold, gets the worker faster.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
A close fish tile for a financial civ is just too good to pass up.
mostly-harmless
Prince
Workboat first.
mh
mh
the best opening is: (not knowing what else we have)
Turn 3: Borders Pop
Turn 6: Workboat Done
Turn 8: discover Mining
Turn 15: Worker Done
Turn 19: Broze Working Discovered. (now we now where copper is for city #2)
Turn 20: Farm is Finished conviniently on the turn we grow to size 2.
Turn 21: Warrior Done.
Turn 24: Chop Done
Turn 25: Worker #2
Turn 26: Wheel Discovered
Turn 28: 2 Chops finished
Turn 29: One Worker Mine, Other Road to city #2 Location (this isn't set in stone depending what the map has)
Turn 30: Settler Done
Turn 32: Pottery Done
Trun 33~Found city #2 as a production city / military outpost with copper. , Both worker create Cottage #1
Turn 34: cottage #1 up first nation in the world with a cottage for sure. Warrior #3 done for MP in capital.
....
.....
At this point it is too tough to plan as our sourroundings change the game obviously, but one strategy is: (second screenshot)
So questions: #1. why not revolt to slavery? Because we don't need to yet,
with a granary isn't efficient, and secondly we won't know our random event sequence yet. Also At size 5 we can then begin revolt and or save revolting until we do a second civic change since it is "free".
Turn 3: Borders Pop
Turn 6: Workboat Done
Turn 8: discover Mining
Turn 15: Worker Done
Turn 19: Broze Working Discovered. (now we now where copper is for city #2)
Turn 20: Farm is Finished conviniently on the turn we grow to size 2.
Turn 21: Warrior Done.
Turn 24: Chop Done
Turn 25: Worker #2
Turn 26: Wheel Discovered
Turn 28: 2 Chops finished
Turn 29: One Worker Mine, Other Road to city #2 Location (this isn't set in stone depending what the map has)
Turn 30: Settler Done
Turn 32: Pottery Done
Trun 33~Found city #2 as a production city / military outpost with copper. , Both worker create Cottage #1
Turn 34: cottage #1 up first nation in the world with a cottage for sure. Warrior #3 done for MP in capital.
....
.....
At this point it is too tough to plan as our sourroundings change the game obviously, but one strategy is: (second screenshot)
So questions: #1. why not revolt to slavery? Because we don't need to yet,
with a granary isn't efficient, and secondly we won't know our random event sequence yet. Also At size 5 we can then begin revolt and or save revolting until we do a second civic change since it is "free".Attachments
Krill
Deity
The only problem I have with that plan is we don't know for sure if the second city will be a production city due to the location of copper. For all we know it could a copper grassland in the middle of a group of rivers with no hills but lots of yummy cottageable grassland, making it possibly better to make the capital a production city with 2 plains hill mines and a grass hill mine.
Only playing devils advocate here; if the copper city is a production city then I would like to get the cottages online asap around the capital.
Only playing devils advocate here; if the copper city is a production city then I would like to get the cottages online asap around the capital.
rivers? grassland? best site for production cty as well. workshops and watermills
longterm thinking here. (throw in the dike if you want as well) and bang 
city!capital =
city. beauracracy is too powerfull not too maximize. 
Krill
Deity
So I take it you prefer chopping the granary and library instead of getting a 2nd settler and a third worker out after groing to size 4?
Krill
Deity
Valid points, it does depend on what we do with the warrior (which we really should start discussing...)
I feel that the decisions for the warrior are to either scout around the capital in a semi circle looking for city sites near the capital or head off to the west somewhere. Because we are looking for copper however, I think that we need to look for city sites around the capital so we can send out the settler asap. That gives us 30 turns of scouting, which could easily find a good city site other than a possible copper site that deserves founding as early as possible (though it probably won't; only real city sites I can think of are a good lux city site, or a contested border with another team that isn't too close which we think we can just plant and hold, slam in a library and blow up the culture in the city).
Of course, the third city site is always in phase two of the game, so that's 30 turns away, 5 months worst case scenario so no real need to overanalyse it right now.
I feel that the decisions for the warrior are to either scout around the capital in a semi circle looking for city sites near the capital or head off to the west somewhere. Because we are looking for copper however, I think that we need to look for city sites around the capital so we can send out the settler asap. That gives us 30 turns of scouting, which could easily find a good city site other than a possible copper site that deserves founding as early as possible (though it probably won't; only real city sites I can think of are a good lux city site, or a contested border with another team that isn't too close which we think we can just plant and hold, slam in a library and blow up the culture in the city).
Of course, the third city site is always in phase two of the game, so that's 30 turns away, 5 months worst case scenario so no real need to overanalyse it right now.
Agreed with the warrior. The only time i ever consider the "wayward" tangent is when you are looking for huts. sicne those are off, we need to scout our immediate surroundings and establish city sites.
btw ==> i can't remeber the last time i researched archery...to me if you get copper before turn 50...you can build axes and hold off barbs much more effectively
btw ==> i can't remeber the last time i researched archery...to me if you get copper before turn 50...you can build axes and hold off barbs much more effectively
Krill
Deity
Yeah, the only time I'd consider getting archery is if we don't have copper for the second city. However, we'll need hunting for spears or archery either way, and we'll want AH in all likelyhood as well, so another point is that if we go (Mining>BW>wheel>pottery) as the first 4 techs, we may want to consider going hunting>AH>Writing instead of getting writting first for the extra research bonus from having extra optional prequisites.
Viva_Chingon
Condition 1
I just noticed an issue with screencapping the demo screen in the early turns...
BtS only displays the demos of civs with whom you've both had contact with *and* collected enough EPs against. I'm pretty sure that in the earliest turns of the game the only civ we will see listed is ourselves.
BtS only displays the demos of civs with whom you've both had contact with *and* collected enough EPs against. I'm pretty sure that in the earliest turns of the game the only civ we will see listed is ourselves.
Krill
Deity
Having seen what M-H is capable of when looking at the other demographics screen, and not using the espionage slider, I think we won't have a problem in the early game with not using espionage point other than from our capital.
Viva_Chingon
Condition 1
I've heard tales (and read through Epsilon's forums)...I'm looking forward to seeing this in action!
mostly-harmless
Prince
10% espionage from the beginning is a waste I think.
In a pitboss game I believe the score list (lower right corner) is available from the beginning.
On top of that we can see the demographics table with all the data regardless of contact.
Then we have, hopefully, the civstats log file.
What we have to do is look at changes in the scores and demographics rankings and we can get a good estimate of what other teams are doing.
Since we have sequential turns we could in theory check the demo table after each team has played and look at the changes there to know what they are doing.
Other important sources of info are:
Religion screen - religion percentage
Diplo screen - espionage point spending
Victory condition screen
It is a lot of work, mind you, and I am happy Kylearan wants to be heavily involved as well. I also hope we can recruit a couple more people helping out with it.
Now I don't know how exact my predictions are. Krill is the all-seeing eye in the Apolyton Demogame and cannot openly confirm to us that what we derived is true but we are very confident with the predictions we made.
These are some things we can learn:
Detailed tech path pre-Alphabet, size and composition of military, detailed city sizes & position (to some extent), tiles worked (in the early turns).
I hope I can live up to the high expectations. ;-)
mh
In a pitboss game I believe the score list (lower right corner) is available from the beginning.
On top of that we can see the demographics table with all the data regardless of contact.
Then we have, hopefully, the civstats log file.
What we have to do is look at changes in the scores and demographics rankings and we can get a good estimate of what other teams are doing.
Since we have sequential turns we could in theory check the demo table after each team has played and look at the changes there to know what they are doing.
Other important sources of info are:
Religion screen - religion percentage
Diplo screen - espionage point spending
Victory condition screen
It is a lot of work, mind you, and I am happy Kylearan wants to be heavily involved as well. I also hope we can recruit a couple more people helping out with it.
Now I don't know how exact my predictions are. Krill is the all-seeing eye in the Apolyton Demogame and cannot openly confirm to us that what we derived is true but we are very confident with the predictions we made.
These are some things we can learn:
Detailed tech path pre-Alphabet, size and composition of military, detailed city sizes & position (to some extent), tiles worked (in the early turns).
I hope I can live up to the high expectations. ;-)
mh
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