Tech tree based calendar with round steps

[billw2015]

I mean an extra dynamic hidden global science output modifier. i.e. instead of change turn time from 1 yr to 2 yrs, you change research modifier from 1 to 0.5.
/edit I think its effectively the same but I'm not particularly clear headed this morning
/edit2 On second thought maybe not, changing science rates definitely doesn't keep techs/turn rate constant of course. Instead it keeps turns/time constant.

 

[raxo2222]

These are hardcoded in game speed definitions.
So you mean to get rid these?

            <GameTurnInfos>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iMonthIncrement>1842</iMonthIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>977</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iMonthIncrement>467</iMonthIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>977</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iDayIncrement>2243</iDayIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>1735</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iDayIncrement>467</iDayIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>1272</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iDayIncrement>288</iDayIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>1186</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iDayIncrement>103</iDayIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>1223</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iDayIncrement>41</iDayIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>1318</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iDayIncrement>15</iDayIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>2160</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iDayIncrement>12</iDayIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>1800</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iDayIncrement>19</iDayIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>1895</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iDayIncrement>30</iDayIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>1800</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iDayIncrement>183</iDayIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>1377</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iDayIncrement>350</iDayIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>1028</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
                <GameTurnInfo>
                    <iDayIncrement>575</iDayIncrement>
                    <iTurnsPerIncrement>1252</iTurnsPerIncrement>
                </GameTurnInfo>
            </GameTurnInfos>
        </GameSpeedInfo>

Global research modifier is 600 by the way - that is 6x defined tech costs.

Maybe there could be some internal multiplier to slow down/speedup everyone depending on tech leader.
And there could be global to set magnitude of this effect - for example constant drag/push, or linearly variable thing, that turns on and becomes stronger, if tech leader is >5% too early/late with reaching new era.
So if tech leader is too fast techs would be more and more expensive to research.
If tech leader is too slow, then techs would be cheaper to research.
This would mean effectively lower global tech cost for Noble players and effectively higher global for Nightmare players.

This tech pace rebalancer could be in separate file, so you could calibrate it easily.

Values are calculated based on current tech tree.
So on Blitz game everyone would be slowed down if tech leader reached Ancient era on 88th turn, and sped up if tech leader reached that era on 109th turn.
These absolute margins are wider for later era:
For Atomic era slowdown would happen if tech leader reached it before 393th turn (slow down - after 479th turn)

 

[billw2015]

I just mean add an extra single global modifier which applies to everyone at all times, and can change dynamically. Can't say if it is even possible though!
That way you can slow down or speed up the tech progress of everyone. It would need to be adjusted like a moving average so as not to be jarring, you wouldn't want number of turns to complete a tech to go from 10 to 20 on the next turn or something! The benefits of this would be keeping the calendar fixed (I dunno how I feel about that changing really, I didn't think about it or try it), I did think the downside would be varying techs/turn rate, but *actually* it should tend to keep techs/turn constant given that number of techs and dates we want them to be researched are both constants.

 

[billw2015]

I wouldn't necessarily use the tech leader here though, it makes it impossible for player to exceed expectations (if you prioritize science you should get to be ahead of the curve), instead some kind of weighted average would be more interesting I think.

Also the formula can be based just on how much science the player has generated total vs the date. We know how much science they need to generate to get to each era, and when we want them to arrive so we can adjust the rate at every point along the way. e.g.
R = current research per turn
S = remaining science to reach next era
T = desired turns to hit next era
So multiplier should be: S/(TR)
Need to put some limiting factor on it, and deal with when it crosses era boundaries, but seems like it should work. Alternatively some kind of PID controller, but they are often a pain to tune and we have discontinuities at the era boundaries.

 

[raxo2222]

I wouldn't necessarily use the tech leader here though, it makes it impossible for player to exceed expectations (if you prioritize science you should get to be ahead of the curve), instead some kind of weighted average would be more interesting I think.

You can be tech leader too - it would be effective multiplier to global, it just that everyone would be sped up or slow down depending on your general pace.
So even if everyone is slowed to crawl, you still can crawl faster than others.
If you reach era on target, then this modifier subsidizes until you reach desired tech rate.
Modifier could clamp between -100 and 100 - on -100 global cost of tech would be halved, and on 100 global cost of tech would be doubled.
Effect would gently ramp up, for example 5 per turn in either way.
Rampup could depend on game speed too.

Also the formula can be based just on how much science the player has generated total vs the date. We know how much science they need to generate to get to each era, and when we want them to arrive so we can adjust the rate at every point along the way. e.g.
R = current research per turn
S = remaining science to reach next era
T = desired turns to hit next era
So multiplier should be: S/(TR)
Need to put some limiting factor on it, and deal with when it crosses era boundaries, but seems like it should work. Alternatively some kind of PID controller, but they are often a pain to tune and we have discontinuities at the era boundaries.

Some techs can be skipped before reaching next era, so you should average it between researching all techs before reaching next era, and researching minimum techs before reaching next era.

This stuff should be inactive, until everyone researches 25 or 50 techs for example.

Joseph intentionally set civics to slow down early game, so on beginning game is very slow, and then it picks up pace.
I think this civic effect wears off in Ancient era.

 

[billw2015]

you still can crawl faster than others

Yeah but unless you can get tanks in 1850 you don't get that same feeling of achievement. We should use these rate changing tools to keep within certain margins, not strictly enforce that you can't get tanks until 1917 or whatever but just to make sure you can't get them in 1066.

Some techs can be skipped before reaching next era, so you should average it between researching all techs before reaching next era, and researching minimum techs before reaching next era.

Yeah definitely. We can infact calculate (by script, or in game as part of the system which is probably better) the average of every possible combination of techs you could research to get to a certain era. Although it doesn't mean all these paths are equally likely of course.

Joseph intentionally set civics to slow down early game, so on beginning game is very slow, and then it picks up pace.
I think this civic effect wears off in Ancient era.

Yeah I like the feeling of exponential growth, but it requires the start to be very slow (which is fine as long as there is stuff to do!).

 

[Toffer90]

Sorry to ask ,but for what purpose is that calendar thing?

There's no real purpose for it that cannot be replaced by using the turn count instead.
Some buildings double in commerces like culture 1000 years after it's built, I would prefer this to be changed to a double thios commerce type after X turns where X can be different for each building and scales by gamespeed setting.
We used to have all spawning base what is spawned on what year it is, but now most spawns are triggered by what techs have been invented by the players, so if any player has this tech then this spawn is valid, then there's a spawn obsolete tech which makes the spawn invalid the moment a player gets that tech.

 

[Yudishtira]

There's no real purpose for it that cannot be replaced by using the turn count instead.
Some buildings double in commerces like culture 1000 years after it's built, I would prefer this to be changed to a double thios commerce type after X turns where X can be different for each building and scales by gamespeed setting.
We used to have all spawning base what is spawned on what year it is, but now most spawns are triggered by what techs have been invented by the players, so if any player has this tech then this spawn is valid, then there's a spawn obsolete tech which makes the spawn invalid the moment a player gets that tech.

That might be fine if you're playing a game. But I'm not playing a game. I'm participating in and observing the history of a new homosapien-inhabited planet.

I need a calendar because they do.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sorry to ask ,but for what purpose is that calendar thing?

To give the player the sense of competing with the actual Earth timeline.

 

[Toffer90]

I need a calendar because they do.

Well, how do we determine when your nation decides to put their 0 point reference for their calendar after they research the calendar, what's to stop them from adopting the calendar of a neighbour, or reset their calendar once in a while to a different zero point due to a imperial decree of some kind.
Maybe they decide to use the advent of scientific methods as their calendars zero point, or perhaps a volcanic eruption that happened 400 years before that...

The calendar is meaningless as this is not earth. but a random planet with life that is similar to our planet. Some scenarios do try to represent our planet, but it certainly still presents the player with an alternate history where the calendar we use today will be very unlikely to replicate in this alternative time line.
Maybe the length of the day cycle is 25 hours on this planet, that could skew things quite a bit after 100 000 years.
What if circumstances on this planet is such that they achieve industrial era techs 60 000 years faster or slower than what we did in history with the reference point being that the tech level is the same 202 019 years before today on this random planet as it was on our planet at that time, it is certainly a plausible alternative timeline on a random earth like planet.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Joseph intentionally set civics to slow down early game, so on beginning game is very slow, and then it picks up pace.
I think this civic effect wears off in Ancient era.

With the new Revamped Preh era it not as slow, but still slower than it was a year ago.

Yeah I like the feeling of exponential growth, but it requires the start to be very slow (which is fine as long as there is stuff to do!).

@billw2015 ,
Players that play the Longer Game Speeds Want more turns to play with their Military units. So even without a slower Preh start, to ramp down the runaway Gold and other bases categories the game has,they Will run out of "things" to build. It's why we have an Idle button and then the Lesser Wealth, Research, and Culture buttons and improved versions of such as these as choices in the city build screen. This need to play with mil units longer is the Main purpose for having a game speed (GS) of 8k, 12k, 16k and 20k number of turns. Ample time to get that stone axe up to Max XP so it can be a Super Hero in the Preh Era and beyond.
EDIT: Also billw you are Supposed to be Hunting and gathering animals for all kinds of uses that will open up more buildings to build. Plus increase your science, culture, food and production.

 

[TaylorItaly]

To give the player the sense of competing with the actual Earth timeline.

For me , this is absolut unnecessary !!!
As @JosEPh_II wrote , i am a such an player who prefer XXXXL Turns / Game ,i wish this is an optional feauture ,which i can switch off!

I want to write my own story with a playthrough,not allways sync with real world....

 

[Thunderbrd]

For me , this is absolut unnecessary !!!

You aren't the only person who plays the game. For many, this is an enjoyed core feature of Civ since Civ I.

I believe you CAN switch off viewing the calendar can't you?

 

[TaylorItaly]

You aren't the only person who plays the game.

What?!?
I really thought so !!!
Ok,Irony out.
How, can i switch it off?

 

[Thunderbrd]

What?!?
I really thought so !!!
Ok,Irony out.
How, can i switch it off?

Isn't there a BUG option for that?

 

[raxo2222]

I want to write my own story with a playthrough,not allways sync with real world....

Syncing with real world would happen naturally, if you researched tech per two/twenty turns on Normal/Eternity (90 - 100 techs per 200/2000 turns).
That is if researching entire tech tree took entire game on average.
It wouldn't be perfectly synchronized, but you could guess era just by looking at save name, as it contains date.

Also there is clock tab in BUG options, where you can turn off calendar display.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Afforess went thru these same arguments several years ago with AND2. He took the Dates out. But after about 6 months of constant player complaints put them back in. Players Like Dates.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

I think some CIV players also like alt-history, not just with the punks, but also with the eras as well. A sense of immersion should be there, but shouldn't be like EUIV's MEIOU and Taxes, which railroads history into the CBs, as well as events. Players want a balance of history and fantastical history. I also like to have sub eras (or periods) that have bonuses, other than just a new fancy color. This may even go into the regular eras, much like Realism Invictus does. I already know what techs should unlock said sub eras, as well as what they should be called. A description of the sub era describing what it is should also accompany it, but I think this should be applied the reg eras first.

 

[raxo2222]

I have suggestion: Can we remove dates completely (or have BUG option to toggle), and instead use subera description?
Subera would be essentially world era. It would naturally recreate Europe effect, as Europe is most advanced region since Renaissance happened here.
Civ level of advancement would be measured by amount of researched techs (religions and punks would be excluded, maybe need tag), and how many columns it already researched - max xgrid of researched techs.
If player is less advanced one, then they could feel like Indians

If most advanced civ is in Prehistoric era, then suberas would be: Palaeolithic, Mesolithic, Neolithic
Ancient - Copper, Bronze, Iron
Classical -
Medieval -
Renaissance -
Industrial -
Atomic -
Information -
Nanotech -
Transhuman -
Galactic -
Cosmic -
Transcendent -
Maybe you could come up with better subera names, preferably 3 for each era and being unique if possible.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have suggestion: Can we remove dates completely (or have BUG option to toggle), and instead use subera description?
Subera would be essentially world era. It would naturally recreate Europe effect, as Europe is most advanced region since Renaissance happened here.
Civ level of advancement would be measured by amount of researched techs (religions and punks would be excluded, maybe need tag), and how many columns it already researched - max xgrid of researched techs.
If player is less advanced one, then they could feel like Indians

If most advanced civ is in Prehistoric era, then suberas would be: Palaeolithic, Mesolithic, Neolithic
Ancient - Copper, Bronze, Iron
Classical -
Medieval -
Renaissance -
Industrial -
Atomic -
Information -
Nanotech -
Transhuman -
Galactic -
Cosmic -
Transcendent -
Maybe you could come up with better subera names, preferably 3 for each era and being unique if possible.

The idea of the calendar is so that the player can have the feeling at least of comparing his progress against the real world's progress rate.