Tech Tree Discussion

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So, just to make sure before I go and change stuff again, the proper button for the religions is

<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/TechTree/found_scientology.dds</Button>

Correct? Where I replace scientology with whatever religion I'm doing.

No. Those are the ones that are mentioned on the religion XML file that replace the ones that are on the tech XML file if the religion has not been founded.

 

[Vokarya]

I was updating my tech tree sheets, and I noticed that if you are not trying for specific religions, the new techs of Karma, Reincarnation, and Resurrection are completely skippable if you are heading towards Analyze Strings.

Right now:

• Karma leads to Reincarnation and Hinduism.
• Reincarnation leads to Buddhism.
• Resurrection leads to Judaism, Voodoo, and Islam.

None of these lead into Analyze Strings at all, and I think the plan for the tech tree is to have all technologies, except for the alternate history/punk techs and the religion founding techs, be required for Analyze Strings. I think we need to have Reincarnation and Resurrection as prerequisites for at least one non-religion-founding technology on the tree (Karma leads to Reincarnation, so hooking Reincarnation into the tree solves the problem for Karma as well). Unfortunately, the only good technology that I can think of to have these techs feed into is Theology. There seems to be a lack of generic religious technologies during the Classical Era. Does anyone have any better ideas?

 

[Vokarya]

I have some suggestions for changes to the prerequisites for three technologies that I would like to propose and see if these can be implemented.

First, here are the alterations that I have thought of:

Altered Techs

Banking
Req Techs: Charters AND Usury

Representative Democracy
Req Techs: Constitution AND Enlightenment

Emancipation
Req Techs: Representative Democracy AND Imperialism

Here are the reasons for the changes.
Banking: I've never been happy with the current prerequisites for Banking (Currency + Paper OR Usury) for two reasons. First, Currency is an early-Classical tech and Banking is in the middle of the Medieval Era. That's a long jump for a tech prerequisite. Second, it's possible with the current prerequisites to skip Usury entirely - research up to Currency, then research up to Paper, then research Banking. From there, you can go all the way to Analyze Strings and never have to research Usury. This change fixes both of those problems. Charters represents government backing of banking activites, and it makes Currency redundant (Currency - Democracy - Charters - Banking).

Representative Democracy: A lot of history books specifically call out the Enlightenment as one of the primary motivators for the American and French Revolutions. I think the tech tree should reflect that, so I moved Enlightenment to Representative Democracy. I also would like to see techs have more than one prerequisite. Representative Democracy currently only has Constitution.

Emancipation: Adding Enlightenment to Representative Democracy makes it redundant for Emancipation. I picked Imperialism because that's what I see Emancipation as a reaction to. I think you can get from one technology to another in terms of a reaction instead of an evolution. For example, this is why I asked to add Steam Power to the prerequisites for Romanticism - Romanticism is a reaction to the Enlightenment and Industrial Revolution.

What do you think? Good ideas? Bad ideas?

 

[AIAndy]

I was updating my tech tree sheets, and I noticed that if you are not trying for specific religions, the new techs of Karma, Reincarnation, and Resurrection are completely skippable if you are heading towards Analyze Strings.

Right now:

• Karma leads to Reincarnation and Hinduism.
• Reincarnation leads to Buddhism.
• Resurrection leads to Judaism, Voodoo, and Islam.

None of these lead into Analyze Strings at all, and I think the plan for the tech tree is to have all technologies, except for the alternate history/punk techs and the religion founding techs, be required for Analyze Strings. I think we need to have Reincarnation and Resurrection as prerequisites for at least one non-religion-founding technology on the tree (Karma leads to Reincarnation, so hooking Reincarnation into the tree solves the problem for Karma as well). Unfortunately, the only good technology that I can think of to have these techs feed into is Theology. There seems to be a lack of generic religious technologies during the Classical Era. Does anyone have any better ideas?

I think the religion founding techs are dead end techs on purpose now so there is an investment you have to make to found them.

 

[strategyonly]

I think the religion founding techs are dead end techs on purpose now so there is an investment you have to make to found them.

Correct, that way the AI does not found them as many as possible like before, its still being tested.

 

[ls612]

@Vokarya:

1. The religion techs are purposefully all dead-ends, that way we break up all of the religion clusters at once AND we make it more of an investment to found more religions. The AI still may not understand this, but that is out of my hands.

2. Those tech changes look good to me, I'll add them if no one objects.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I have some suggestions for changes to the prerequisites for three technologies that I would like to propose and see if these can be implemented.

First, here are the alterations that I have thought of:

Altered Techs

Banking
Req Techs: Charters AND Usury

Representative Democracy
Req Techs: Constitution AND Enlightenment

Emancipation
Req Techs: Representative Democracy AND Imperialism

Here are the reasons for the changes.
Banking: I've never been happy with the current prerequisites for Banking (Currency + Paper OR Usury) for two reasons. First, Currency is an early-Classical tech and Banking is in the middle of the Medieval Era. That's a long jump for a tech prerequisite. Second, it's possible with the current prerequisites to skip Usury entirely - research up to Currency, then research up to Paper, then research Banking. From there, you can go all the way to Analyze Strings and never have to research Usury. This change fixes both of those problems. Charters represents government backing of banking activites, and it makes Currency redundant (Currency - Democracy - Charters - Banking).

Representative Democracy: A lot of history books specifically call out the Enlightenment as one of the primary motivators for the American and French Revolutions. I think the tech tree should reflect that, so I moved Enlightenment to Representative Democracy. I also would like to see techs have more than one prerequisite. Representative Democracy currently only has Constitution.

Emancipation: Adding Enlightenment to Representative Democracy makes it redundant for Emancipation. I picked Imperialism because that's what I see Emancipation as a reaction to. I think you can get from one technology to another in terms of a reaction instead of an evolution. For example, this is why I asked to add Steam Power to the prerequisites for Romanticism - Romanticism is a reaction to the Enlightenment and Industrial Revolution.

What do you think? Good ideas? Bad ideas?

These seem reasonable and make sense. I approve.

ls612 please make these changes when you have a moment to. Thanks!

 

[ls612]

These seem reasonable and make sense. I approve.

ls612 please make these changes when you have a moment to. Thanks!

Done.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I was updating my tech tree sheets, and I noticed that if you are not trying for specific religions, the new techs of Karma, Reincarnation, and Resurrection are completely skippable if you are heading towards Analyze Strings.

Right now:

• Karma leads to Reincarnation and Hinduism.
• Reincarnation leads to Buddhism.
• Resurrection leads to Judaism, Voodoo, and Islam.

None of these lead into Analyze Strings at all, and I think the plan for the tech tree is to have all technologies, except for the alternate history/punk techs and the religion founding techs, be required for Analyze Strings. I think we need to have Reincarnation and Resurrection as prerequisites for at least one non-religion-founding technology on the tree (Karma leads to Reincarnation, so hooking Reincarnation into the tree solves the problem for Karma as well). Unfortunately, the only good technology that I can think of to have these techs feed into is Theology. There seems to be a lack of generic religious technologies during the Classical Era. Does anyone have any better ideas?

Hmm so really all we would need is to make Reincarnation and Resurrection lead to a non-religious tech for them not to be dead end anymore.

I will have to think more on this if they should stay dead end or fit into a tech requirement. Like it or not but many of these religious concepts have influenced non-religious techs.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Hmm so really all we would need is to make Reincarnation and Resurrection lead to a non-religious tech for them not to be dead end anymore.

I will have to think more on this if they should stay dead end or fit into a tech requirement. Like it or not but many of these religious concepts have influenced non-religious techs.

OR get rid of them and just have the religions there instead. Wasn't that the point to make the religions dead end why add in another if they have become dead end or am I missing something. (Highly likely as I don't have any coffee in the house and am waiting for the shops to open )

 

[Hydromancerx]

OR get rid of them and just have the religions there instead. Wasn't that the point to make the religions dead end why add in another if they have become dead end or am I missing something. (Highly likely as I don't have any coffee in the house and am waiting for the shops to open )

The reason for them is that they share concepts of more than one religion. For instance Judaism, Christianity and Islam all sharing the concept of Resurrection. The secondary reason is having techs with more than one tech requirement means they are harder to monopolize on. This goes to the core issue that Joe was wanting.

Lastly we have so many other types of techs (military, economic, sports, art, music, etc) that having some more religious techs might not be so bad. Especially in the eras where religion is one of the main driving forces of life.

 

[JosEPh_II]

OR get rid of them and just have the religions there instead. Wasn't that the point to make the religions dead end why add in another if they have become dead end or am I missing something. (Highly likely as I don't have any coffee in the house and am waiting for the shops to open )

That was my original proposal, but adding 4 more techs didn't seem too radically change the purpose, so I didn't object. I gave to get, Or I might not have gotten at all!

And they made me sweat it out for almost 2 weeks too!

Update: by the end of tonight's play time I should see if the AI will invest in getting a religion. Several are approaching Resurrection and Karma. If they vear off then the Religion Tech Cost will be the deciding factor. I used a Golden age to shorten the time to get Judaism last night. That's when I also noticed several AI going back to pick up Priesthood.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

1. The religion techs are purposefully all dead-ends, that way we break up all of the religion clusters at once AND we make it more of an investment to found more religions. The AI still may not understand this, but that is out of my hands.

Going for an unfounded tech is part of the decision tree for the AI already so splitting them into dead end techs should have no effect on the AI wanting their religions

 

[JosEPh_II]

Going for an unfounded tech is part of the decision tree for the AI already so splitting them into dead end techs should have no effect on the AI wanting their religions

But will the Increased Cost do so?

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

SVN 3083,
Druidism on top of another tech @ X9 Y13.
All these Religion techs have a pink square:
Shamanism
Andeanism
Asatru

Islam has no Pathing arrows (don't know if that matters or not)

Text_KEY_ for:
GPS3 and INTELLIGENTPAVEMENT.

JosEPh

 

[Sarah Starlight]

SVN 3083,
Druidism on top of another tech @ X9 Y13.
All these Religion techs have a pink square:
Shamanism
Andeanism
Asatru

Islam has no Pathing arrows (don't know if that matters or not)

Text_KEY_ for:
GPS3 and INTELLIGENTPAVEMENT.

JosEPh

All of the deleted techs in Digital Era have Text_KEY now, since their Pedia text got deleted,(for some).. anything in those Techs will have to be moved, in 2 days Azure will review the new Digital Era design and everything will be ok, hang in there. =)

Techs i know got deleted:

next generation gps
specialized police
artisan firefighting
intelligent pavement
supersonic/transonic traffic
asymmetrical architecture
ontological engineering

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

I do not see any difference of the religious tech icons from the region founding icons. The religous techs should be uses the icons you had before while the founding icons should have the in the corner and blue background. Please fix.

 

[Vokarya]

OR get rid of them and just have the religions there instead. Wasn't that the point to make the religions dead end why add in another if they have become dead end or am I missing something. (Highly likely as I don't have any coffee in the house and am waiting for the shops to open )

I have no problems with the techs that found religions be dead-end, but I think the new intermediate techs (Karma/Reincarnation/Resurrection) should tie back into the rest of the tech tree.

 

[Vokarya]

Hmm so really all we would need is to make Reincarnation and Resurrection lead to a non-religious tech for them not to be dead end anymore.

I will have to think more on this if they should stay dead end or fit into a tech requirement. Like it or not but many of these religious concepts have influenced non-religious techs.

No problem, it can wait. I just thought I would bring it up because, as far as I am aware, except for the alternate-history and religion-founding techs, every other tech is supposed to be required to get to Analyze Strings.

 

[Sarah Starlight]

i think these techs need to be added:

Colonialism (renissance)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism

Colonialism is the establishment, maintenance, acquisition and expansion of colonies in one territory by people from another territory. It is a process whereby the metropole claims sovereignty over the colony, and the social structure, government, and economics of the colony are changed by colonizers from the metropole. Colonialism is a set of unequal relationships between the metropole and the colony and between the colonists and the indigenous population.

Demigod (ancient)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demigod
should be a connector between polytheism and monothesim

The term demigod (or demi-god), meaning half-god, is commonly used to describe mythological figures whose one parent was a god and whose other parent was human;[1] as such, demigods are human-god hybrids. In some mythologies it also describes humans who became gods, or simply extremely powerful figures whose powers approach those of the gods even though they are not gods themselves.

Omen / Oracles (Ancient)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omen

An omen (also called portent or presage) is a phenomenon that is believed to foretell the future, often signifying the advent of change.[1] Though the word "omen" is usually devoid of reference to the change's nature, hence being possibly either "good" or "bad," the term is more often used in a foreboding sense, as with the word "ominous". The origin of the word is unknown, although it may be connected with the Latin word audire, meaning "to hear.

Synthesizer (modern)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesizer

A sound synthesizer (often abbreviated as "synthesizer" or "synth") is an electronic instrument capable of producing a wide range of sounds. Synthesizers may either imitate other instruments ("imitative synthesis") or generate new timbres. They can be played (controlled) via a variety of different input devices (including keyboards, music sequencers and instrument controllers). Synthesizers generate electric signals (waveforms), and can finally be converted to sound through the loudspeakers or headphones.

Magic Tricks (renasiance)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(illusion)

Magic (sometimes referred to as stage magic to distinguish it from paranormal or ritual magic) is a performing art that entertains audiences by staging tricks or creating illusions of seemingly impossible[1] or supernatural[2] feats using natural means. These feats are called magic tricks, effects, or illusions.

One who performs such illusions is called a magician or an illusionist. Some performers may also be referred to by names reflecting the type of magical effects they present, such as prestidigitators, conjurors, mentalists, or escape artists.

Opera (renassiance)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera

Opera (English plural: operas; Italian plural: opere) is an art form in which singers and musicians perform a dramatic work combining text (called a libretto) and musical score, usually in a theatrical setting.[1] Opera incorporates many of the elements of spoken theatre, such as acting, scenery, and costumes and sometimes includes dance. The performance is typically given in an opera house, accompanied by an orchestra or smaller musical ensemble.

Circus (industrial)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circus

A circus is commonly a travelling company of performers that may include clowns, acrobats, trained animals, trapeze acts, musicians, hoopers, tightrope walkers, jugglers, unicyclists and other stunt-oriented artists. The word also describes the performance that they give, which is usually a series of acts choreographed to music and introduced by a ringmaster. A traditional circus performance is normally held in a ring 13 m (42 ft) in diameter. This dimension was adopted by Philip Astley to enable a horse rider to stand upright on a cantering horse to perform a series of acrobatic maneuvers and to more easily retain their balance. Most modern circuses have a system of tiered seating around the ring for the public and since the late 19th early 20th century the performance has taken place under canvas and more recently plastic tents commonly called "The Big Top" .

Puppetry (ancient)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppetry

Puppetry is a form of theatre or performance that involves the manipulation of puppets. It is very ancient, and is believed to have originated 3000 years BC.[1] Puppetry takes many forms but they all share the process of animating inanimate performing objects. Puppetry is used in almost all human societies both as entertainment – in performance – and ceremonially in rituals and celebrations such as carnivals.[2]

Most puppetry involves storytelling. The impact of puppetry depends on the process of transformation of puppets, which has much in common with play.