Tech Tree Discussion

For many info classes there is no such thing as a blank entry.
Well, you could certainly 'negate' an entry. You can't make it truly blank but you can make it a dead field in the game sense. I can't recall what tech it is but we use just such a blank dead tech for a lot of prereqs if we want those prereqs to be set to something (for whatever reason) but the tech doesn't show in the tech tree and isn't mentioned in any way in the game... I believe its used on a lot of free promos. Koshling was explaining about it a while back but I can't recall what tech it was... can anyone remind me there?

Unfortunately by the time you get to the Game Options it has already loaded the information. That is why we use the Modular Loading Control (or MLF) system to turn modules on or off.
That's why we have the option edit system. So that Game Options can swap out infos on info class objects conditionally. What I'm trying to figure out here is how it can be used in a way that makes a class object effectively negated if a Game Option isn't in use. I believe it can be done but we'd have to hammer out how to set up such a functionally negated entry, then we replace said functionally negated entry with the true data for that entry but do so conditionally upon the Game Option being active.
 
As a simplier, though perhaps less elegant, soloution, could you just turn off the selectable area to techs that are removed by game options? And/or change the text in the box to 'This Tech removed by game option selection'.
 
Well, you could certainly 'negate' an entry. You can't make it truly blank but you can make it a dead field in the game sense. I can't recall what tech it is but we use just such a blank dead tech for a lot of prereqs if we want those prereqs to be set to something (for whatever reason) but the tech doesn't show in the tech tree and isn't mentioned in any way in the game... I believe its used on a lot of free promos. Koshling was explaining about it a while back but I can't recall what tech it was... can anyone remind me there?
That is not a general way. It just works specifically for some info classes that have fields that if set in specific ways make them be ignored by major parts of the code (not all parts though).
So it is easy to invalidate a unit or building by making them depend on an unresearchable tech but the same cannot be done for a civic option without adding new code.
 
That is not a general way. It just works specifically for some info classes that have fields that if set in specific ways make them be ignored by major parts of the code (not all parts though).
So it is easy to invalidate a unit or building by making them depend on an unresearchable tech but the same cannot be done for a civic option without adding new code.

Don't all info classes have defaults in their constructor? If so, then we could simply have them use the defaults if the option is off.
 
Don't all info classes have defaults in their constructor? If so, then we could simply have them use the defaults if the option is off.
The defaults are in many cases valid infos that would get displayed and everything.
 
The defaults are in many cases valid infos that would get displayed and everything.

Mostly display is the issue at that point and that could be controlled pretty easily with a bit of additional code. That's pretty much how we'd have to go about making an On or NotOn game option tag for those unfleshed out info classes anyhow. The fact that such a method could already be applied for techs, and thus on units and promos is an interesting point in and of itself though, as that seems to be the hinging point that started the conversation. It's possible that we won't find much need for doing something similar among civic selections.
 
Add a new infobasereplacement tag bVisible (which defaults to on if not specified). If that is false the thing in question goes away.
Call it bActive but it is still something that needs to be programmed separately for every info class.
 
1) With the addition of the Feline Domestication and Mummification the Egyptian religion (Kemetism) is happening to far down the tech tree. It is now easier to get Judaism or Hinduism than Kemetism.

2) The religion only techs need to cost more. I think they should cost 2-3 times the cost of techs in the same column.
 
1) With the addition of the Feline Domestication and Mummification the Egyptian religion (Kemetism) is happening to far down the tech tree. It is now easier to get Judaism or Hinduism than Kemetism.

2) The religion only techs need to cost more. I think they should cost 2-3 times the cost of techs in the same column.

Agreed.
 
I see in Archaeology March/April 2013. that there is now evidence for stone throwing spears made by homo heidelbergensis about 460,000 years ago. They were considered to have simple language and were the first to bury their dead but there was no evidence of stone tool working until now.
 
I see in Archaeology March/April 2013. that there is now evidence for stone throwing spears made by homo heidelbergensis about 460,000 years ago. They were considered to have simple language and were the first to bury their dead but there was no evidence of stone tool working until now.

AHa you saw that too huh?
 
1) With the addition of the Feline Domestication and Mummification the Egyptian religion (Kemetism) is happening to far down the tech tree. It is now easier to get Judaism or Hinduism than Kemetism.

2) The religion only techs need to cost more. I think they should cost 2-3 times the cost of techs in the same column.

Newest game, started with rev 5190 and updated to 5211, it's 4565BC in an Epic game with 10 AI, only 4 religions have been founded.

1st Religion founded in the game - Tengrii, by me, 13350BC
2nd - Mesopotamism, AI, 5930BC
3rd - Shinto, me, 5930BC
4th - Judaism, me, 4600 BC

No Druidic, Shamanism, or Ngaii and these are normally the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd/4th religions, respectively, to be founded in any game prior to this SVN version range. And the AI usually founds the these 3 while I'm bee lining Tengrii.

Something relatively recent has put the AI Off of building/founding religions, with Mespotamism the lone exception.

There was some complaining by some recent new players about the AI researching religion techs that had already been founded and the AI was "tweaked". I think it's maybe broke now?

JosEPh

EDIT: Moved to Bug thread so it can be seen and maybe fixed?
 
I was asked to repost this over here, after I stumbled onto an ongoing discussion about the current lateness of chariotry and the wheel:

The wheel was probably invented many times around the world. While it may have done in some cultures, there's no reason why potter's wheels would have to come first. The only universal pre-requisite for building wheels would be an appropriate level of wood working, and I suspect, rollers.

Rollers were used in the construction of such wonders as Stonehenge, and the Moai statues. Rolling mighty blocks of stone along on top of round tree trunks allowed those blocks to take journeys that seem amazing even today.

C2C already has plenty of techs, but perhaps if the wheel and chariots are having problems in the current scheme of things, Rollers might help to make the route to the wheel a little easier. It could also be a pre-req for Megalith Contruction, Stone Henge, Pyramids and similar early wonders.

The placing of the wheel at the moment is probably very late, historically. Alternatively, the current wheel tech could be renamed to the spoked wheel, which was a significant advance on the solid wheel technology that was developed much earlier, in the late neolithic.

Throwing out a shakey suggested layout:

Rollers: Pre-req Wood-working and Leads to Megalith Construction and the Solid Wheel. (Alternatively, to keep things less cluttered, rollers could simply be considered to be part of Megalith Construction, as you certainly weren't building many megalith without them.)

The (Solid) Wheel: Pre-req: Rollers, Carpentry, Animal Husbandry (as oxen are quite sufficient for cart pulling) Allows (probably tweaked down) "Early Chariot" (and perhaps some adapted cultural ones) with horse/camel domestication. Leads to Pottery (For Potter's Wheel purposes). Solid wheeled chariots were heavier and slower than spoked wheel ones, but they still served as the ultimate war machine of their time.

The Spoked Wheel : Where the wheel currently is, with Pre-Req Pottery. Which is still a bit strange and later than it ought to be. Allows the rest of the chariots.

Here's an example of a solid wheeled chariot from before the invention of the spoked wheel with a nice 5000 year old picture that might be suitable for the solid wheel tech. http://www.mesopotamia.co.uk/tombs/explore/w_char2.html From that page " Chariots were used in Mesopotamia from before 3000 B.C. The earliest chariots had either two or four solid wheels. Chariots with spoked wheels were invented about 1900 B.C. Early Sumerian chariots were pulled by donkeys. The charioteer steered the chariot using reins which went through a ring carried on the donkey's back and attached to rings in their noses. "
 
Based on Arkenor's ideas some tech brainstorming.

NEW

Rollers
Req Techs: Simple Wood Working AND Stone Building
Location: X10 Y19

Solid Wheel
Req Techs: Rollers AND Carpentry AND Animal Husbandry
Location: X16 Y11
Buildings: Wheelwright
Units: Early Chariot and Battering Ram

OLD

Megalith Construction
Req Techs: Mysticism AND Arithmetic AND Slavery AND Rollers

Pottery
Req Techs: Agriculture AND Earth Oven AND Ideograms AND Solid Wheel

Trade
Req Techs: Portable Shelters AND Pottery
Location: X22 Y3

Spoked Wheel (TECH_THE_WHEEL)
Req Techs: Trade
Location: X23 Y3

Piracy
Location: X24 Y3

Chariotry
Req Techs: Equine Domestication AND Spoked Wheel
Buildings: Chariot Maker, Hippodrome and Circus Maximus
Units: Chariot and Chariot Archer (+Archery)

*phew*

Ok I think that works.
 
Based on Arkenor's ideas some tech brainstorming.

Megalith Construction
Req Techs: Mysticism AND Arithmetic AND Slavery AND Rollers

I reckon this should be Mysticism AND Slavery AND (Rollers OR Arithmetic). There is evidence that no rollers were used in the construction of the Moai and dragging blocks over gravel ensures a smooth surface for fitting blocks together. The latter has been suggested as how some ancients got their blocks to fit so well.

Alternates to rollers are sled and travois systems. Both pre-wheel.

We still have the problem of the Egyptian religion being founded way after it should be. Two techs, feline domestication and mummification, were added before it in the tech tree but nothing was added to move all the other religions back! Aa a quick fix can both be made OR requirements.
 
We still have the problem of the Egyptian religion being founded way after it should be. Two techs, feline domestication and mummification, were added before it in the tech tree but nothing was added to move all the other religions back! Aa a quick fix can both be made OR requirements.

The beginnings of the Egyptian Religion predates elaborate deliberate mummification (as opposed to bodies being naturally dessicated by the sands) of the sort represented by the tech, so perhaps it ought not to be a pre-requisite. Though I'm guessing that mummification was added specifically to be Kemetism's pre-req, and it'd look a bit odd without that job. It's really just a flavour of ceremonial burial, I suppose.
 
I reckon this should be Mysticism AND Slavery AND (Rollers OR Arithmetic). There is evidence that no rollers were used in the construction of the Moai and dragging blocks over gravel ensures a smooth surface for fitting blocks together. The latter has been suggested as how some ancients got their blocks to fit so well.

Alternates to rollers are sled and travois systems. Both pre-wheel.

Oh that's true bout the Moai walking rather than being rolled. That seems reasonable.
 
Why is Slavery so early in techtree? basically everything connected with slavery comes at Trade, way down the road! Worldview-Slavery, Slave-Specialist, Slave market...

Don't you mean why isn't World View - Slavery at the tech Slavery rather than at trade? They actually require both! Markets and selling probably should require trade but the others probably don't need to.
 
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