Tech Tree Discussion

[lightning551]

Many commenters may not realize how much work a small adjustment can end up being and how blind we developers might be to how many things that small adjustment impacts until we have the tools (and keep up with adjusting them) of spreadsheets to alert us to all those interconnections.

We cannot just willy nilly adjust where a tech is... that's actually a fairly serious project to remap the full impact of a small adjustment there. Therefore, a commenter MAY feel dismissed or that the team just looks for reasons not to react, but the reality is, we're (I'm speaking for the team, but perhaps it's more just me) currently trying to let what we have settle into place long enough to map out all these interconnections - THEN we'll take another look at some irrationalities and try to address them.

In the meantime, we may share some reasons why things are as they currently are and put anything to debate, but actual changes are something I think we're all reluctant to do without deep analysis and cause of gameplay as much as rationale - and historical accuracy is also taken into account to a degree.

Point being, don't stop making suggestions and bringing up items of discussion. It's a good exercise. But also don't expect us to change much right away as a change is NOT trivial no matter how trivial it may appear to be at first.

Personally my suggestions and observations are only my own input on it and I don't expect the team to make changes simply based on my input. I only do so to put my thoughts out there.
In all honesty I find that you guys are very active in adding new content to the mod and fixing things. And I have been very happy with both the mod and the job the team has done so far.

Canoe should pair with War Canoe and Galley should pair with War Galley, at least for the most part. This needs sorted out so as not to come across dramatically anachronistic as it does now.

Galleys were in use for awhile before strictly military designs were introduced. I could easily see something like a war canoe being in use along side of a galley. Then again I kinda find the whole way that the game handles navel vessels to be a bit odd when it comes to galleys as many of the models were in use at the same time as wealthier nations/cities could build larger ships.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Canoe should pair with War Canoe and Galley should pair with War Galley, at least for the most part. This needs sorted out so as not to come across dramatically anachronistic as it does now.

No they should not. The first in each is about advances in traveling over water. The second is about them being weaponized.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm not saying same techs without some delays but you shouldnt be obsoleting the weaponized vessel by the transport upgrade on the same x grid column.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The war canoe should be able to defeat the galley 75% of the time. The transport unit does nor obsolete the war unit it obsoletes the old transport unit.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The war canoe is an even match against the galley last I checked. Unless the war canoe has an adjustment against wooden boats or something. They're either the same strength or the galley is just a little stronger. The galley is also faster. It was an ancient vessel that's been moved to the prehistoric due to the sailing tech being moved. (A perfect example of what happens when techs are moved without great care and consideration.)

EDIT: Referring to the XML on this:
Galley (not war galley) : Move 3, Combat 4 ,has transport space for troops

War Canoe : Move 2, Combat 3 (no innate combat benefit against wood ships), Transport space for nothing.

The War Canoe is intended to travel along with Canoes, which transport units. Unlocking in the same tech X grid as the Galley is inane and will be corrected at some point soon. These stats are the intended balanced stats - it's the tech progression that is wrong - and cost suffers some irrationale as well as a result.

It might be best to give the base Galley a str of 3 so that it can be preyed upon by a well promoted War Canoe. This would also give the War Galley's strength of 5 a more appropriate strength superiority to both the previous war ship and the concurrent transport ship.

 

[raxo2222]

Why some colums in tech tree are very sparsely populated? That is having 3 or less techs.
Not counting first/last few colums of tree and lifestyle bottlenecks.

 

[pepper2000]

Why some colums in tech tree are very sparsely populated? That is having 3 or less techs.
Not counting first/last few colums of tree and lifestyle bottlenecks.

When it comes to the last three eras, I left some space deliberately to insure that there will be room for expansion as needed. I don't have any new techs planned at this time, but it could happen.

 

[raxo2222]

To research last tech in tech tree you need 879 techs
Punks and religions are intentionally dead end techs.
Religions: Druidic Traditions, Shamanism, Tengriism, Mesopotanism, Yoruba, Shinto, Ngaiism, Andeaism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Hinduism, Caanaism, Kementism, Rodnovera, Asatru, Buddhism, Hellenism, Naghualism, Confucianism, Taoism, Jainism, Christinity, Islam, Voodoo, Sikhism, Baha'i, Mormon, CaoDai, Scientology - 29 religions

Punks: Megafauna Domestication, Clockpunk, Steampunk, Dieselpunk, Atompunk, Biopunk, Cyberpunk, Nanopunk, Crystalpunk, Spacepunk, Starpunk - 11 punks

Unintentionally missed: Waterproof Concrete (middle of Classical), Mountaineering (end of Medieval), Lead Glass (beginning of Reneissance), Coast Guard (beginning of Modern) - 4 techs.
I think something should require these four missed techs.

In total we have 923 technologies in game.
This means evolution of civilization is very smooth when you research tech after tech - At any point research your existing cities won't change too much when you research 10 - 20 techs, when researching whole column after column.

Eras have very varied amount of techs in them:
Prehistoric - 99 techs
Ancient - 91 techs
Classical - 60 techs
Medieval - 54 techs
Renaissance - 59 techs
Industrial - 64 techs
Modern - 95 techs
Information - 80 techs
Nanotech - 82 techs
Transhuman - 74 techs
Galactic - 63 techs
Cosmic - 50 techs
Transcedant - 51 techs
Future - 1 tech

 

[tmv]

Techs that require buildings (like Waterproof Concrete) should not be treated that way, or you might run out of research options at some point. I think Lead Glass has the same problem.

 

[raxo2222]

So now it leaves Mountaineering and Coast Guards techs.
They are dead end for now.

 

[Hydromancerx]

So i downloaded the latest SVN and took a look at the tech tree since I have been away and I love it! So much good stuff and buildings added since I last checked it. However I have one issue, which is the Renewable Energy tech and Wind Turbines. While the Renewable Energy tech is probably fine where it is the Wind Turbines should come earlier. The first electric ones are in the 1880's. So my recommendation is to do the following ...

Wind Power (New)
Location; X69 Y9 (Late Industrial Era)
Req Tech: Electricity AND Agricultural Engineering
Buildings: Wind Farm (moved here)
Improvements: Modern Windmill (moved here)

Gyrocompass
Location; X69 Y7 (Moved up one row)

Renewable Energy
Req Tech: Biomaterials AND Climate Models AND Nanotechnology AND Wind Power

What do you guys think?

 

[Thunderbrd]

yep... do all we can to improve the historical logistics of implementing various power solutions. But we also really need to start looking at power as a property too.

 

[pepper2000]

Although wind electricity goes back a long way, it is relatively recent that it became a major part of the grid. We have the same issue with solar power, where the tech (which comes before Satellites) represents niche uses, not solar as a mainstream electricity source. I could go either way on this change.

 

[Hydromancerx]

yep... do all we can to improve the historical logistics of implementing various power solutions. But we also really need to start looking at power as a property too.

Also we might want to add in an Advanced Wind Farm at Renewable Energy tech too which could use variations on the standard Wind Turbines such as the Vertical Axis Turbines. Which look more high tech.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_axis_wind_turbine

 

[Hydromancerx]

Although wind electricity goes back a long way, it is relatively recent that it became a major part of the grid. We have the same issue with solar power, where the tech (which comes before Satellites) represents niche uses, not solar as a mainstream electricity source. I could go either way on this change.

Well Renewable Energy tech is just too late on the tech tree. If we want to go for the first mainstream grid version then we need the tech around the 1950's. Basically right after WWII. That would place it closer to Solar Power (Mid Modern) than Hydroelectric Power (Late Industrial).

Solar Power
Req Tech: Modern Physics AND Hydroelectrcity AND Manufacturing

If we want to have it more like this then perhaps ...

Wind Power (New)
Location; X79 Y15 (Mid Modern Era)
Req Tech: Modern Physics AND Hydroelectrcity AND Manufacturing
Buildings: Wind Farm
Improvements: Modern Windmill

It still could lead to Renewable Energy since its an Early Information Era.

Also Long Range Forecasting would need to move a little.

Long Range Forecasting
Location; X79 Y13 (moved up 1 row)

 

[Thunderbrd]

Please PM me directly if anyone changes the tech tree at all. Not like i'm saying don't, just please inform me very explicitly if you do right now.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Please PM me directly if anyone changes the tech tree at all. Not like i'm saying don't, just please inform me very explicitly if you do right now.

I don't know if I am even getting back to modding C2C at the moment. These are more suggestions for you guys. The idea just came up when i was looking over the tech tree.

 

[pepper2000]

I think this cuts into a general problem we have, which is when historically a new tech is considered to be discovered. When I added the Renewable Energy tech, I was thinking specifically of the recent phenomenon of renewable energy being cost competitive in many parts of the world and starting to supply a significant fraction of electricity. I think this is a significant phenomenon that merits a tech, and then we can add on top of that recent and emerging energy sources such as osmotic and tidal power.

It's also in a good place for timing purposes, well after the Nuclear Power and Solar Power techs, and well before the Fusion tech.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I agree that Renewable Energy as a tech is in a good spot, but I disagree that Wind Farms should be there since they have existed long before then. The way i see it is we have 3 eras of Wind ...

1. Invention of Wind powered electricity in the late Industrial era.

2. The introduction of wind power on the grid in the mid modern era.

3. The diversification of wind power and its cost competitive nature in the early information era.

Thus I want to add "Wind Power" as either a tech at the #1 spot or #2 spot. And then have Advanced Wind Farms at #3.

 

[pepper2000]

I think that's a good plan.