Tech Tree Revisions
- Thread starter Vokarya
- Start date
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
@ 45 Ha Ha Ha (stuttered laughter), as long as your not a white lab mouse.
This needs some 'deep thought'
This needs some 'deep thought'
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
How about keeping Thermodynamics as a Project? Builder civ would receive some
bonus and allows IW and CM for everyone (with the respective techs ofcource).
Don't panic!
How about keeping Thermodynamics as a Project? Builder civ would receive some
cource)
I don't think we need it. I'd rather use that mechanic sparingly, and we have enough of those types of projects as it is:
- Manhattan Project unlocks First Nuclear Test for everyone.
- International Monetary Fund unlocks World Bank for everyone.
- First Cloned Mammal unlocks Cloning Laboratory (will be Cloning Tanks eventually) for everyone.
- Internet unlocks Great Firewall. This is a more of a side effect.
- International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor unlocks Fusion Power Plant for everyone.
- Then there is the whole space chain. Apollo Program is the starting point, unlocking Hubble Space Telescope and International Space Station for everyone. ISS unlocks Deep Space Research Laboratory and Zurich-Orbital. Z-O unlocks Zurich-Orbital Uplink.
I still want to cut 4 techs (and add Synthetic Fibers) to get the Modern Era to 40 techs. I know 40 is arbitrary, but it gives a nice round feel and stays constant with the Industrial.
There are actually 10 techs that I don't think we need that much and are potential cuts.
The four that I am looking to cut are Tourism, Unmanned Air Vehicles, Recycling, and a fourth that I haven't completely decided on. Most likely Virtual Reality. I would really like a tech that could encompass both Hydroponics and Aquaculture and fold those together.
There are actually 10 techs that I don't think we need that much and are potential cuts.
- Biological Warfare: I think this is a nebulous concept. It would be better if we had more definition to combat and different effects, but that introduces whole new layers of complexity that I don't want to get into. Biological Warfare Lab could be folded into Antibiotics.
- Modern Seismology: I don't like the name "Modern" on anything. It is not at the top of the cut list. It is good for modern geology and plate tectonics. If this tech had a better name, I would like it much more.
- Tourism: Very broad concept, too broad to pin to a specific tech. Serves as a "black hole" for tricks. The tricks Tourism does have could be easily divided up and shared to boost other techs.
- Supersonic Flight: I think we have a little too much emphasis on flight. In the Modern Era, we have Aerodynamics, Jet Propulsion, Supersonic Flight, and Rocketry before we get into space travel.
- Aquaculture: Narrow tech. I'm also not sure if this is a good place for it.
- Hydroponics: Narrow tech, even more so than Aquaculture. I would love to combine these two.
- Recycling: Very narrow tech. Carhenge is cute but not much more than that.
- Space Stations: Another narrow tech. Maybe this should be "Space Exploration" instead?
- Virtual Reality: "Not ready for prime time." I don't think Virtual Reality has enough practical applications to be a Modern Era tech. Virtual Reality gives the Combat Simulator and Flight Simulator and the E-Bank. E-Bank could sit at Networking or Knowledge Management and the other two could be moved elsewhere. The Simulators' purpose is to be the next step up in Modern Era military training.
- Unmanned Air Vehicles: I'd like to combine this with Automated Traffic. I want to cut the Global Hawk and I'd also like to cut the Drone Bombers. We have too many air units in the Modern Era compared to the other two eras that have air units.
The four that I am looking to cut are Tourism, Unmanned Air Vehicles, Recycling, and a fourth that I haven't completely decided on. Most likely Virtual Reality. I would really like a tech that could encompass both Hydroponics and Aquaculture and fold those together.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Could Modern Seismology just be renamed to Seismology? Would that be adequate enough?
That's a good first step. I wish there was an overall better word. The technology is on fairly firm ground, so to speak, but I don't think it's really about seismology. It covers modern earth sciences and resource extraction - it gives Modern Mine and Groundwater Well, improves Quarry/Well/Offshore Platform, and reveals Methane Ice and Geothermal Energy.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
How is it going with techs cuts? Do you already have any idea about transhuman era? Should we go down to 40-45 techs there too?
I ask because I'm running some test and with proposed changes industrial is running well, but modern and transhuman are probably too quick. I don't mind about Transhuman too much, but modern should be rebalanced too and I can do it after we're finished with techs cutting.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
45°38'N-13°47'E;14303377 said:
About TH era:
I'd rather don't like to see it cut down. Maybe pushing some techs to Future era, if it's needed.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
There's no sense in using Future Era: it's meant to only have one recursive tech. The problem is that more techs mean faster research time which in turn gives more advantage to the tech leader. That's something we don't want to happen, especially by the end of the game. Also, we should avoid huge drops in tech costs if possible when changing eras, like it's currently happening. I don't see any other way to do it. Except maybe changing some tech cost increase: currently techs costs increase for each column; we could make techs costs increase every two columns and that could help. Science output isn't constantly growing through the game while tech cost probably is (I haven't checked but I'm sure Vokarya knows). This is why I think the total science needed per era shouldn't increase constantly but should probably slow down somewhere in modern era. I can adjust this with tech modifiers per era, but to avoid techs costs drop it would probably be good to flat out techs costs a bit from industrial onwards.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Or, if I recall correctly, base cost increases by 100 for every column, we could make it 50 for every column from industrial onwards.
45°38'N-13°47'E;14303377 said:
I'm just about done coding up the genetics changes; removing Biomaterials, Replacement Organs, and Regenerative Medicine and moving Cloning up to the Transhuman Era.
I'm picking out a fourth target for the Modern. I'd still like to cut Tourism, Unmanned Air Vehicles, and Recycling, and remove one other tech to make room for Synthetic Fibers. I think Synthetic Fibers fits well into the tree (between Manufacturing and Fiber Optics/Composites) and has enough tricks to be supported (Modern Infantry, Modern Paratrooper, Emperors Clothing). I'm not sure whether the best choice is to merge Biological Warfare with Antibiotics or merge Hydroponics and Aquaculture.
In the Transhuman Era, I just looked at it some more and I don't think there are that many more cuts we could make. I would like to merge Nanoelectronics and Smart Dust with Nanobotics, and cut Powered Exoskeleton and Hypersonic Flight. I don't see that much difference in the nano- technologies, and both Exoskeleton and Hypersonic are fairly narrow and can be broken up.
SnoopDogg23
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
- Messages
- 40
45 Degrees and Vokayra:
When do we get to try out this new streamlined tech tree? I'd like to start a new game and give it a shot.
Snoop
When do we get to try out this new streamlined tech tree? I'd like to start a new game and give it a shot.
Snoop
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Once Vokarya is done with tech cutting I can balance everything when I get back by the end of the month.
The SVN version has most of the cuts I plan to do. The Industrial Era is completely done. There are only a few cuts left to the Modern and Transhuman Eras. I'm looking to figure out exactly what I want to cut out of the Modern. There are more possibilities than the maximum number of cuts I want to make. The Transhuman Era is a matter of what can be sacrificed and doesn't seem to offer much potential.
So here is my idea of how to dismantle Tourism. Tourism is one of my least favorite techs because it is very nebulous. Tourism goes on all the time, but the tech we have is specific to middle-class jet-age tourism. Furthermore, Tourism is a "black hole" for tricks (it's a tourist attraction? Give it to Tourism!) and I think what it has could be easily spread out to reinforce other techs. Also, Tourism's only exit point is Counterculture. I think Counterculture has a better place as it is a more explicitly cultural technology in an era that doesn't have many others (Mass Media and Networking are probably the biggest examples).
Tourism has one of the highest trick counts, although I've brought it down by moving Safari Hunters to Imperialism. Everything else would go to a Modern Era tech.
Tourism has one of the highest trick counts, although I've brought it down by moving Safari Hunters to Imperialism. Everything else would go to a Modern Era tech.
- Vacation Resort goes to Jet Propulsion. Most of these aerospace techs are almost all military and I would love to give some of them non-military tricks. JP is after Aerodynamics where the Airport is available, so that's not a problem.
- MileHigh Travels goes to Supersonic Flight. Again, this is about blurring the military/non-military line for these techs.
- Adventure Tours goes to Ecology. Ecology is currently almost all improvement-related stuff.
- Las Vegas Strip goes to Laser. The Strip can go just about anywhere in the early Modern Era and Laser has one of the lowest trick counts of the era. If you don't like this, Mass Media would be appropriate.
- SnowCastle of Kemi goes to Mass Media. The Castle was only first built in 1996, but I don't see a very appropriate tech in the late Modern Era. I do want to keep SnowCastle as we need some Wonders for the Modern Era and I like having some things to benefit arctic cities.
- Dig Site's bonus goes to Modern Seismology. I think it fits with the rest of the improvement bonuses.
Another cut that I want to do is to remove Hypersonic Flight. I feel it's too close to Skyroads and Orbital Flight and could be easily removed. Aurora Scramjet would go to Skyroads. Skyroads has no air units currently and this would open up some distance between the Aurora and the Orbital Fighter. Aerospace Complex would go to Orbital Flight.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
I'm good with all the changes proposed there. Mentioning the Dig Site does remind me though that it currently has no Improvement model whatsoever right now: building one on a fossil bed has no visual change over an unimproved one.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Vokarya, what do you think about this proposal? Once we're done with techs cutting, we might want to revise techs costs increase between columns from industrial onwards. I have some good reasons for this proposal: first, I think science output is increasing faster up to renaissance because you're still expanding. After that era, most of the map is taken so assuming you'll keep expanding is at least flawed. Of course you can still expand, but you'll have to conquer other civs and keeping a big cost increase between columns (bigger than previous era, at least), can only give an advantage to bigger civs, which is not what we want in terms of balance. Second thing, if we want techs costs to always increase as the game is developing through eras and if we want that at least some civs can discover every tech by the end of the game, the only way to do it is decreasing tech costs by reducing the gap between columns. I've seen more or less that each industrial column has a distance of 200 in terms of cost, 250 for modern and at least 1000 for transhuman. I think we should reduce that to 100, 150 and 500 and then play with techcostmodifier until we reach a good balance.45°38'N-13°47'E;14303499 said:
What do you think? I could easily do it once you're done with your work on the tech tree, I really think we need it to keep the game balanced through the later eras. But this is something we can do only after the work on tech tree is done, if we agree to do it.
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