Technologies help for those who like war
- Thread starter 1stcivdiv
- Start date
Gooblah
Heh...
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2007
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- 4,282
Welcome to CivFanatics, and Civ4, 1stcivdiv.
I suggest beelining to bronze working, and settling a city in order to grab copper if its not in your capital's range. Build a barracks while the copper is hooked up, then create about 6 axemen. Then grab essential improvement techs while beelining for alphabet. Pick up sailing, fishing, and archery (sometimes even hunting) from a civ or two, depending on who gives you the best deal. If they request alphabet for the techs, don't gift it to therm until mid-game, when you'll get a better deal. From there, use the Oracle to grab Machinery, Metal Casting, or Engineering, to create your medieval era army. Remeber to grab construction for Cats and Elephants.
I suggest beelining to bronze working, and settling a city in order to grab copper if its not in your capital's range. Build a barracks while the copper is hooked up, then create about 6 axemen. Then grab essential improvement techs while beelining for alphabet. Pick up sailing, fishing, and archery (sometimes even hunting) from a civ or two, depending on who gives you the best deal. If they request alphabet for the techs, don't gift it to therm until mid-game, when you'll get a better deal. From there, use the Oracle to grab Machinery, Metal Casting, or Engineering, to create your medieval era army. Remeber to grab construction for Cats and Elephants.
I think we need a comprehensive list of ALL the great military techs.
Start with Bronze Working as it opens up Axemen, and two important unit rushing tactics, chopping and Slavery. It also opens up Spearmen if you have hunting (one of the starting techs).
Next is Iron Working. Axemen will do fine until you run into cities with archers on hills. Iron Working opens up Swordsmen, which are the best city attackers until Macemen. If you cannot find copper fast or if it just isn't near you then you need to go to Iron Working soon or you'll lose your early war oppurtunity.
Construction is, in my opinion, the second most important military tech in the game after Bronze Working. It opens up two of the most powerful units in the game, the War Elephant (with Ivory) and most importantly, the catapult. Simply put, a well defended stack of catapults can take any AI city well into the Medieval Period.
You'll want to grab Theology at some point if you have a state religion and it's in your production cities. That way you can switch to Theocracy and get +2 experience points per unit.
Engineering unlocks the even more powerful Trebuchet and the War Elephants only counter, the Pikeman. It also increases road travel meaning you can mobilize for war faster.
Most civs will beeline for Feudalism in the mid-game for the Longbowman. It's an important military tech because it means you will have to change your strategy once your opponents get it (you'll start needing siege weapons). Feudalism also unlocks Vassalage, which will give your units +2 experience points. This is very nice, so switch to it.
Macemen require a lot to get to. Metal Casting is expensive as an early tech and then Machinary and Civil Service are also a lot pricier than the Mace's best counters, Longbows and Crossbows (both of which come earlier). Because of that I wouldn't consider the path to getting Macemen to be particularly important, but you'll need Machinary and Civil Service to do it.
You will need Literature at some point so you can get the Heroic Epic in a city. 100% military production, so identify your production center fast and build it there.
Military Tradition is a dead-end tech but it unlocks Cavalry and West Point (+4 experience). Cavalry are significantly better than their horse back predecesors, so I would suggest building some.
If you like gunpowder units, skip building Musketmen and keep going to Chemistry to unlock Grenadiers. They look funny and 12 strength might not seem like much, but it's the attack bonus that makes them great. They are +50% against Riflemen, and the AI loves using Riflemen to defend its cities at this point. You get base 18 vs. 14 in that battle, so a nice stack of Grenadiers usually does the trick.
And if all else fails, first to Industrialism wins (assuming you have oil).
Start with Bronze Working as it opens up Axemen, and two important unit rushing tactics, chopping and Slavery. It also opens up Spearmen if you have hunting (one of the starting techs).
Next is Iron Working. Axemen will do fine until you run into cities with archers on hills. Iron Working opens up Swordsmen, which are the best city attackers until Macemen. If you cannot find copper fast or if it just isn't near you then you need to go to Iron Working soon or you'll lose your early war oppurtunity.
Construction is, in my opinion, the second most important military tech in the game after Bronze Working. It opens up two of the most powerful units in the game, the War Elephant (with Ivory) and most importantly, the catapult. Simply put, a well defended stack of catapults can take any AI city well into the Medieval Period.
You'll want to grab Theology at some point if you have a state religion and it's in your production cities. That way you can switch to Theocracy and get +2 experience points per unit.
Engineering unlocks the even more powerful Trebuchet and the War Elephants only counter, the Pikeman. It also increases road travel meaning you can mobilize for war faster.
Most civs will beeline for Feudalism in the mid-game for the Longbowman. It's an important military tech because it means you will have to change your strategy once your opponents get it (you'll start needing siege weapons). Feudalism also unlocks Vassalage, which will give your units +2 experience points. This is very nice, so switch to it.
Macemen require a lot to get to. Metal Casting is expensive as an early tech and then Machinary and Civil Service are also a lot pricier than the Mace's best counters, Longbows and Crossbows (both of which come earlier). Because of that I wouldn't consider the path to getting Macemen to be particularly important, but you'll need Machinary and Civil Service to do it.
You will need Literature at some point so you can get the Heroic Epic in a city. 100% military production, so identify your production center fast and build it there.
Military Tradition is a dead-end tech but it unlocks Cavalry and West Point (+4 experience). Cavalry are significantly better than their horse back predecesors, so I would suggest building some.
If you like gunpowder units, skip building Musketmen and keep going to Chemistry to unlock Grenadiers. They look funny and 12 strength might not seem like much, but it's the attack bonus that makes them great. They are +50% against Riflemen, and the AI loves using Riflemen to defend its cities at this point. You get base 18 vs. 14 in that battle, so a nice stack of Grenadiers usually does the trick.
And if all else fails, first to Industrialism wins (assuming you have oil).
bluedevil99
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2006
- Messages
- 139
Excellent overview by Mango. I'll add a few:
Machinery and Civil Service are both needed to unlock Macemen, which are a dominant pre-gunpowder unit. Macemen can be upgraded immediately with the city raider (CR) promotion and can single-handedly destroy an opponent without longbows. Stacks of macemen and trebuchets will chew through longbow-protected AI cities. Civil Service is one of the best techs in the game by itself (and as such should be prioritized) as it enables the powerful Beauracracy civic (x2 production and commerce in capital) and 'chain farms'.
Fuedalism enables longbows, the most powerful defensive unit through much of the game. This is a less important tech for you, as warring effectively means being on offense most of the time. But it is VERY important to know which AIs have it as longbow protected cities are much harder to take pre-macemen and trebuchets.
Guilds enables knights. Knights are terrific against longbows but very vulnerable to pikemen--and often you won't get to guilds long before the AI gets to pikes (Engineering).
Chemistry (and its prerequisite Gunpowder) enable the gunpowder-based 'melee' units. Grenadiers (Chemistry) are 12 strength units, a sizable step up from macemen. I'm a fan of Chemistry as it is often a shorter climb up the tech tree than Rifling (for Riflemen) or Military Tradition (for Cavalry), and enables powerful Frigates on water maps. Grenadiers aren't as dominant as they could be as they don't get the CR promotion. However, it is worth noting that your CR-promoted macemen can be UPGRADED (by spending gold) to grenadiers, which makes an incredibly powerful attacking unit.
Assembly Line enables infantry. Infantry are 20 strength units, and get bonuses against other gunpowder units to boot. As above, it's worth noting that if you upgraded your CR macemen to grenadiers, they can be updated AGAIN to infantry with more gold. If you've got the cash, this can give you one of the most powerful offensive units in the game. Also, Assembly Line enables factories, which give a 50% production boost and can be a critical improvement to offset the increased hammer cost of late game units.
More tips:
Catapults are a dominant unit in the early game. They are of course useful for stripping city defenses, but they are much better than that. One of the AIs biggest weaknesses in war is it doesn't understand collateral damage (until late in the game when it sometimes gets artillery-happy). Because of this many of my early game stacks are almost 50% catapults--just keep at least one axeman and at least one spearman in the stack and the AI will often sit back in its cities waiting to be bombed out of existence.
Following that, combined arms is KEY. You don't want the AI 'picking off' units, you want to keep them in their cities or in big stacks so your collateral damage is maximized. Since an attacker always faces the STRONG defender, even a single spearman or pikeman in your stack is often enough to keep AI horse archers and knights from picking off your other melee and siege units.
The name of the game is acquiring military techs early and maximizing their useful life. It's a common mistake to wait until you have all 'current' units--for goodness sake don't wait for knights when you have macemen and trebs ready to rock. This in turn means you need to prioritize and choose which unit from a particular generation to get first.
If you have Warlords, consider using your first great general to create a medic III/mobility 'MASH unit', preferably a chariot or horse archer. This helps speed early war by getting your wounded attackers back up to full health and on to the next target ASAP. It also virtually negates collateral damage in the rare instances the AI does get smart and toss a catapult at your huge stack.
Machinery and Civil Service are both needed to unlock Macemen, which are a dominant pre-gunpowder unit. Macemen can be upgraded immediately with the city raider (CR) promotion and can single-handedly destroy an opponent without longbows. Stacks of macemen and trebuchets will chew through longbow-protected AI cities. Civil Service is one of the best techs in the game by itself (and as such should be prioritized) as it enables the powerful Beauracracy civic (x2 production and commerce in capital) and 'chain farms'.
Fuedalism enables longbows, the most powerful defensive unit through much of the game. This is a less important tech for you, as warring effectively means being on offense most of the time. But it is VERY important to know which AIs have it as longbow protected cities are much harder to take pre-macemen and trebuchets.
Guilds enables knights. Knights are terrific against longbows but very vulnerable to pikemen--and often you won't get to guilds long before the AI gets to pikes (Engineering).
Chemistry (and its prerequisite Gunpowder) enable the gunpowder-based 'melee' units. Grenadiers (Chemistry) are 12 strength units, a sizable step up from macemen. I'm a fan of Chemistry as it is often a shorter climb up the tech tree than Rifling (for Riflemen) or Military Tradition (for Cavalry), and enables powerful Frigates on water maps. Grenadiers aren't as dominant as they could be as they don't get the CR promotion. However, it is worth noting that your CR-promoted macemen can be UPGRADED (by spending gold) to grenadiers, which makes an incredibly powerful attacking unit.
Assembly Line enables infantry. Infantry are 20 strength units, and get bonuses against other gunpowder units to boot. As above, it's worth noting that if you upgraded your CR macemen to grenadiers, they can be updated AGAIN to infantry with more gold. If you've got the cash, this can give you one of the most powerful offensive units in the game. Also, Assembly Line enables factories, which give a 50% production boost and can be a critical improvement to offset the increased hammer cost of late game units.
More tips:
Catapults are a dominant unit in the early game. They are of course useful for stripping city defenses, but they are much better than that. One of the AIs biggest weaknesses in war is it doesn't understand collateral damage (until late in the game when it sometimes gets artillery-happy). Because of this many of my early game stacks are almost 50% catapults--just keep at least one axeman and at least one spearman in the stack and the AI will often sit back in its cities waiting to be bombed out of existence.
Following that, combined arms is KEY. You don't want the AI 'picking off' units, you want to keep them in their cities or in big stacks so your collateral damage is maximized. Since an attacker always faces the STRONG defender, even a single spearman or pikeman in your stack is often enough to keep AI horse archers and knights from picking off your other melee and siege units.
The name of the game is acquiring military techs early and maximizing their useful life. It's a common mistake to wait until you have all 'current' units--for goodness sake don't wait for knights when you have macemen and trebs ready to rock. This in turn means you need to prioritize and choose which unit from a particular generation to get first.
If you have Warlords, consider using your first great general to create a medic III/mobility 'MASH unit', preferably a chariot or horse archer. This helps speed early war by getting your wounded attackers back up to full health and on to the next target ASAP. It also virtually negates collateral damage in the rare instances the AI does get smart and toss a catapult at your huge stack.
Also, a good tip to know is that since Feudalism unlocks Vassalage and Serfdom it is VERY easy to know when an AI gets it. This helps you plan your strategy better. If you see an alert saying an AI has switched to one of those civics then you know that they have just aquired Longbows, and that means leaving them alone until you have catapults.
And as for bluedevil's last tip, that Great General on one unit also helps with another thing: West Point. I believe you need a level 5 unit to unlock it and that's just hard to get without the aggressive trait. A single GG can promote a unit to level 5 so you won't have to worry about protecting your best attackers.
And as for bluedevil's last tip, that Great General on one unit also helps with another thing: West Point. I believe you need a level 5 unit to unlock it and that's just hard to get without the aggressive trait. A single GG can promote a unit to level 5 so you won't have to worry about protecting your best attackers.
obsolete
Deity
Mass Media is soooo overpowering for an army. The first one who gets it, usually steamrolls right over the others with that bonus.
JackOfClubs
Warlord
All of this is exactly correct but I wouldn't prioritize Ironworking and Swords over Construction and Catapults. The 10% city attack bonus is nice but it doesn't justify the extra expense and Swordsmen are weak against Axemen. If you find yourself attacking hill-city archers, attack some other city while building more Axemen. This will allow you to promote the original Axes and have more for kamikaze duty while you tech up to Construction. Swordsmen are nice but they are usually too specialized to make it worth prioritizing them.
However, if you don't have copper, then Ironworking becomes a necessity as Mango says. But build primarily Axemen with the iron, not Swordsmen.
Well, good points most of it here but a few suggestions:
- Vassalage over Bureaucracy isn't a very bright move in the long run. If you got loads of units queued up for a short while use it, but don't stick with it, the research/production you are getting from Bureaucracy is very good and you'll miss it. (I rarely use this civic)
- Feudalism you can safely skip, you don't want to defend inside cities anyway. Thats the AI's job.
Just get it from a tech trade later on.
- The AI "loves" horse. So if you bring good anti horse units, you will beat him soundly. (Elephants are awesome for this, they counter Knights too) So stick some Spears/Pikes/Elephants (these are my main garrison force in cities later on) for defensive duties to mop up silly harassers. Promote units so they are really anti-horse. (Elephants with formation rocks)
- If you are gonna get a medic 3 unit, consider promoting a catapult instead of a useless chariot/horse archer. Get at least C1-Medic 1 on it and a couple of more xp points if you aren't Charismatic so you can get Morale too. (+1 Movement) You just got a hospital which bombards cities
Key techs: Bronze Working, Code of Laws, Construction, Civil Service, Machinery, Engineering, Chemistry, Steel, Assembly Line, Artillery
Code of Laws for Courthouses, you'll need them in every city quick to stop the economy from ruining your game.
The other techs unlocks important units for your city conquering stacks. The city breakers should be your siege units. (Catapults/Trebs/Cannons/Artillery)
Just bring enough anti melee/horse to protect them. When you get CR3 siege you will lose almost nothing taking cities.
Note: I don't think Iron Working is very important if you have copper. Axemen do the job fine and protects the stack better than swords. (If you are Romans it's the other way around, get iron fast) In the end it's the catas who seals the deal anyway.
And remember to use Slavery and Chopping properly.
If you get a huge AI city (size 10+) you usually can whip out some replacement units from it in a hurry when it ends revolt. Don't be afraid to use this on your own cities either if you need to. (except capital, only in the most direst needs)
- Vassalage over Bureaucracy isn't a very bright move in the long run. If you got loads of units queued up for a short while use it, but don't stick with it, the research/production you are getting from Bureaucracy is very good and you'll miss it. (I rarely use this civic)
- Feudalism you can safely skip, you don't want to defend inside cities anyway. Thats the AI's job.
Just get it from a tech trade later on. - The AI "loves" horse. So if you bring good anti horse units, you will beat him soundly. (Elephants are awesome for this, they counter Knights too) So stick some Spears/Pikes/Elephants (these are my main garrison force in cities later on) for defensive duties to mop up silly harassers. Promote units so they are really anti-horse. (Elephants with formation rocks)
- If you are gonna get a medic 3 unit, consider promoting a catapult instead of a useless chariot/horse archer. Get at least C1-Medic 1 on it and a couple of more xp points if you aren't Charismatic so you can get Morale too. (+1 Movement) You just got a hospital which bombards cities
Key techs: Bronze Working, Code of Laws, Construction, Civil Service, Machinery, Engineering, Chemistry, Steel, Assembly Line, Artillery
Code of Laws for Courthouses, you'll need them in every city quick to stop the economy from ruining your game.
The other techs unlocks important units for your city conquering stacks. The city breakers should be your siege units. (Catapults/Trebs/Cannons/Artillery)
Just bring enough anti melee/horse to protect them. When you get CR3 siege you will lose almost nothing taking cities.
Note: I don't think Iron Working is very important if you have copper. Axemen do the job fine and protects the stack better than swords. (If you are Romans it's the other way around, get iron fast
) In the end it's the catas who seals the deal anyway.And remember to use Slavery and Chopping properly.
If you get a huge AI city (size 10+) you usually can whip out some replacement units from it in a hurry when it ends revolt. Don't be afraid to use this on your own cities either if you need to. (except capital, only in the most direst needs)
vale
Mathematician
I don't want to
, but don't sleep on nationalism either as a tech to prioritize for warmongers.
, but don't sleep on nationalism either as a tech to prioritize for warmongers.
Jerrymander
Epistemologist
A lot of people beeline to Military Tradition. In Vanilla, playing as Russia makes this tactic extremely attractive.
Also, pay close attention to strategic resources. Most good units require strategic resources (Copper for Axemen, Iron for Macemen/Swordsmen, Ivory for War Elephants, Horses for Calvary, Oil , for Tanks, etc). Make sure that you have the right techs that reveal these. (And try to stop your opponents from having these resources by pillaging.
)
Also, pay close attention to strategic resources. Most good units require strategic resources (Copper for Axemen, Iron for Macemen/Swordsmen, Ivory for War Elephants, Horses for Calvary, Oil , for Tanks, etc). Make sure that you have the right techs that reveal these. (And try to stop your opponents from having these resources by pillaging.
)Ah, I neglected to mention Railroads! Assuming you are on Pangaia or Continents and you haven't killed everyone, railroads are amazing. The ability to move troops 10 times faster than before makes mobilizing them so much easier. No more waiting 7 turns for your Macemen to arrive from your production center to the front line; they're there on the next turn! They also can increase production exponentially if you have a lot of mines, lumber yards and quarries as a railroad gives +1 hammer to each of those. Make sure to hook up all your stuff in your production centers first to maximize this. Of course depending on the game, railroads can have limited use, especially on water maps.
I consider railroads one of the most powerful techs to use, unless you are on a mostly water map as you just said. the production bonus for your mines and lumbermills and the movement bonus go together very well for making war (synergy, baby!)
In the late game if you truely love war and want to conduct it perpetually, regardless of losses, then there is only one tech... Fascism.
Build jails in your main cities, build Mt Rushmore in a production city and adopt Police State. Now War Weariness is a thing of the past. That makes Fascism the most important late game war tech
Build jails in your main cities, build Mt Rushmore in a production city and adopt Police State. Now War Weariness is a thing of the past. That makes Fascism the most important late game war tech
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
I don't agree with the iron working/swordsmen no being that important. Swordsman 6 str + 10% verusu city with city attack II = 6*1.55 or 9.3 compared with axemen 5 * 1.45 or 7.25. Enough for a swordman to take a city on a hill with an archer. Just add an axeman and/or chariot into your stacks to protect them.
Of course swords are better than axes in attacking cities. But axes still do the job without needing to research another tech (which is expensive by the way) when you are better off researching other techs. (AI's prioritize IW a lot so it's easy to trade for it)
The early appearance and not having to waste beakers on a tech all AI's have anyway makes Axes competent enough for that early war. Later on when you have Catapults swords aren't needed at all, axes defend your stack better than them and do a good job with proper promotions still. (with a spear for chariots)
If you are Romans it's another deal entirely, Iron working should be top priority then since Praetorians rocks your pants.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
Not going for iron working early has 2 other disadvantages 1) You cannot utilize anything in a jungle without it and 2) You cannot locate where the resources are for our future cities and where to pilage your enemy iron sources. You will eventually need the iron for knights/crossbows. An axemen rush is great and I will do that before I get to iron working but I usually get iron working way before alphabet.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
Plus axemen are succeptible to chariots/horse archers while swordmen eliminate the need to carry spearmen (or at least minimize them). A stack of swordmen need a few axemen which help in attaching cities. A stack of axemen need a few spearmen which are inept in city attacks (without catapults).
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