Terrorism

okay i take back that resistance and terrorism are the same,

resistors- those whom are unhappy because they lost homes and possible some family members during the occupation....with a little bit of time, a new coat and a glass of wine, the resistors forget about their hardships and are bought off by luxuries.

terrorists- these orphans of poor countries become the soldiers of a holy fanatical war, brought on by the extortion and lack of compassion by world powers. their main aim is to destroy landmarks and buildings associated with a countries nationalism. they may be paid off, but their intentions never go away, they dont stop until they are located and destroyed.

i know i said that they were some what the same, but in a globalized world they are different.



if the terrorism thing ever gets implemented.... with a cia or fbi headquarters, one should be able to check his cities as well as foriegn ones to see an indication or percentage of the existance of terrorists that live in a city...

lets say if my country has on average 15% of terrorists living in my cities, another nation could justify going to war with i, to prevent the terror machine. or if i notice one of my cities has a high terrorism harbour rate, i should be able to take action and be responsible by somehow reducing the number.,,

but of course this should all be added after corporation and globalization have been discovered....
 
The problem with some of these great ideas for terrorism is that they presume features in Civ that don't exist yet. And they're not simple features. And they're probably way more interesting in of themselves than terrorism itself.

Seperation between Civ and State: In the past Civs, you are the Civ. If you have a revolution, it doesn't mean anything. It's a nuisance. Then you get back to running everything. Only if your power is confined to the state can you have any meaningful detractors.

These detractors can resent you for many reasons, which can be explored throughout this post.

Nationalism versus Imperialism: The nature of Imperialism is that each of his subjects pledges allegiance to the Emperor, King, or Sultan. The ruler (and his dynasty) holds everyone together, no matter how different his subjects are. Nationalism is where people pledge allegiance to a flag, a land that belongs to everybody. Most importantly, a Nation is unified by a sense of common heretige, language, and values. An empire does not require this grassroots unity.

Nationalism often moves in spite of Imperialism. The Ottoman empire conquered a huge portion of land south of Russia/Poland, and East of Austria/Italy, and the Sultan ruled over many different subjects. Several "freedom fighters" began to get funding from intellectuals who believed that they were their own people, not "Turks". A massacre of 12,000 Turks occured, and thus began the war of Independance for Greece.

This would require features like rebellions, as well as a new cultural system to determine which citizens/cities have a common enough heritege to seperate and form their own Nation... A nation that hasn't been created yet, and may never have existed before.

Social Programs: And if you implement rebellions, you need to implement a way to prevent rebellions. It's not enough to be able to kill those who rebel. You'd need to be able to assimilate, pacify, or oppress them so they don't even think about rebelling. This means being able to make your empire into a police state so you always know what everyone is up to. Or this means making your empire into a welfare state, so the worst off have a decent quality of life and don't want to rebel.

And you'd need to be able to work with many shades in between these two concepts, since neither of these would exactly work well in their purest form, and nor are they diametrically opposed.

Crime and Deviance: A few poorly off people here and there might commit a crime. A frustrated segment of society who begins to identify with one another might cause a riot. Generations of frustration combined with deep intellectual thought might lead to full on rebellion and revolution. This scale would be absolutely necessary, or else rebellion would be random or inevitable -- and thus completely frustrating.

Internal Terrorists: Now, with all of these factors, you'd BARELY be able to explain a Timothy McVeigh. A single bombing due to a strange combination of social factors.

You'd probably be able to explain terrorists who feel oppressed by Israeli occupation. But Palestine is on that blurry line between rebellion and terrorism (I guess that blurry line will be resolved by hindsight). If they had real weapons, they might be a full-on Nationalist rebel movement. But they don't, and so suicide bombings and political attacks keep it more in the realm of crime than war.

--------------------------

Explaining international terrorists, though, you'd need a whole other set of factors.

Colonialism: A colony isn't a mini-town that you set up to extract gems before your borders expand. Colonizing happens when you send settlers into a populated area to run things, but have no interest in actually conquering the land. It's Imperialism's better-intentioned cousin. This is what Britain did to India. Or Belgium did to Zaire. Or Spain to Cuba. Or the Europeans did to, like, everywhere. Of course, why would you want to colonize and not conquer? In Civ, there's no reason for this yet.

Resource Consumption Even without getting into the advanced Economics, the reason you don't conquer an entire people and go to all the energy of building up more civilization around the world is because it's too high maintenance. Not to mention the reason you go there in the first place -- to acquire key resources that can improve the quality of life for your people. For your REAL people, not the ones that you're occupying, but for the ones back home. The key resource could be as industrial as oil or as luxurious as diamonds. You don't want to tap these and give them to the people you colonized -- you want to bring it back to the nucleus of your empire, and give the colonized crap on a stick.

But if consumption is so lame that only your military units need it, and they only require it to be built (no maintainance), who cares if you conquer more people? It's no sweat off you back.

Tangible Trade Routes Britain's occupation of the Suez Canal, or of India... they weren't necessarily for the resources themselves but the trade routes for the resources. But in Civ 3, trade routes are equally as efficient whether you have a single road across a border or a ship that has to go go all the way around a huge hulking landmass. This doesn't matter, so competing for key geographic positions doesn't mean anything.

Vassals: If colonizing improves on conquering in that you don't have to give much to the people that you're occupying, vassalhood is even more efficient. You don't do any occupying at all. You make a deal with the leaders of the nation. Or if you're feeling especially devious, you make a deal with rebels in the nation, help them take power, and they pay you back with those resources you so desire.

International Terrorism: If you've vassalized another nation and essentially made heaps of money from sucking away their oil, or their bananas, or their banana oil... The rebels might not pull a Timothy McVeigh against your puppet regime -- they might come right after YOU. Finally, we can explain SOME kind of international act of terrorism.

--------------------

Now look at all those features. That's just ONE possible path to explain international terrorism. This isn't even getting into how multinational corporations can provoke international terrorism -- and that's assuming Civ even has a private sector at all!

Another path that wasn't explored is how a unique situation like the creation of Israel could provoke international terrorism. You'd need to give people a reason to annex a chunk of land and give it to a bunch of refugees, instead of keeping it for themselves. If the only result can be international resentment against you for annexing the land, why would someone do it in the first place? There would need to be a motivation to give away land to a Civilization doesn't even exist in the way Civ represents a Civilization.

My point is when you look at that list of a dozen or so features -- you have a huge list of ambitious changes to make to Civ before you can even consider Terrorism. Terrorism is just a low priority because it's not feasible. That's even before you ask if any of the above changes like vassals are desireable for Civ. (I vote yes. But then I'd be happy to see them finish this list of features by Civilization 6.)

Random Terrorism: This is the last ditch alternative. Terrorism occurs randomly throughout the world, with buildings getting blown up. The terrorists either have no source or have a random source. This isn't particularly worthwhile if you ask me.

Inaccurate Terrorism that is grossly confused with State-Sponsored Espionage: People build units and use them to blow up each others' buildings, or kill civilians. The fact of the matter is that this already exists in Civ 3.

Inaccurate Terrorism that is grossly confused with War: You create a unit that fights other units. What makes it a terrorist is that the unit is called "Terrorist" and dresses and looks like a 13 year old's stereotype of what every Terrorist looks like. The fact of the matter is that this already exists in a 13 year old's Civ 3 mod.
 
yes dh i do think your right, maybe we are getting ahead of ourselves with the terror concept. your views and concepts are much more indepth then mine, and have a deeper connection to the whole structure of the game. it will be interesting to see in a year, of how the designers have rewriten the game from scratch. the thing is that they are rewritting the game, and they should implement this terror structure within it.

peace

p.s. mr.kerry is that u?
 
naziassbandit said:
Terrorism would be born when your civilization conquers enemy cities.

Terrorism would do little damage to the population or to the infrastructure of the city thats under attack.

Why terrorism born when your civ conquers a city? I think that's not terrorism....that's resistance, guerrilla...

Terrorism englobes in the majority bombing events, not ambushes......That would only happen when you conquer the very core of the terrorist territory (assuming that the terrorist are being supported by a civ). Apart from that terrorism should act by the normal way....And off course it will damage the population and the buildings of a city. Did you noticed that the fall of World Trade Center was a terrorist action......?
 
Comrade Pedro said:
Why terrorism born when your civ conquers a city? I think that's not terrorism....that's resistance, guerrilla...

Terrorism englobes in the majority bombing events, not ambushes......That would only happen when you conquer the very core of the terrorist territory (assuming that the terrorist are being supported by a civ). Apart from that terrorism should act by the normal way....And off course it will damage the population and the buildings of a city. Did you noticed that the fall of World Trade Center was a terrorist action......?

No, no, no I meant that... when you conquer enemy city, That city will of course resist. The terrorist will also resist, but by killing and blowing up your cities and citizens, rather than peppering the invading force. :(

You see terrorisms purpose is to terrorize not to destoroy, even they might say so sometimes. They are succesfull when the countrey tighten its security and even might become a police state. The fall of WTC was a worst kind of terrorist that has happen :( (i believe), but how much lives was really lost?
In civ terms thats so small that it does not effect the citizen faces.
And the infrastructure... well I said little thats not 'no effect at all'. Terrorism might destroy a temple and or something, but the real effect would be felt in the happiness, and something called ''peace weariness'' would be born. Terrorism might destroy a wonder too, but very VERY rearly. :)
 
No, the purpose of terrorists is NOT to terrorize. NOR is it to destroy. Their purpose is to get what they want. By giving terrorize or destroy as their goals, you are reducing them to two dimensional movie villains. They have their motivations, just like anyone else, and any model of terrorism that fails to take that into account is going to look as two dimensional as a bad Hollywood film.
 
rhialto said:
No, the purpose of terrorists is NOT to terrorize. NOR is it to destroy. Their purpose is to get what they want. By giving terrorize or destroy as their goals, you are reducing them to two dimensional movie villains. They have their motivations, just like anyone else, and any model of terrorism that fails to take that into account is going to look as two dimensional as a bad Hollywood film.

I stand corrected.
 
so the million dollar question would be, if terrorism was introduced to civ 4, how would the civer eradicate it?

raze every entire village and city?
introduce facism?
become a terrorist himself?(the old, if u cant beat them, join them, kinda thing)
or simply turn off his computer?

there has to be some clever ways to thwart terrorism, and possibly eliminate it.
to win the walker award for best non-evildoer
 
brinko said:
so the million dollar question would be, if terrorism was introduced to civ 4, how would the civer eradicate it?

raze every entire village and city?
introduce facism?
become a terrorist himself?(the old, if u cant beat them, join them, kinda thing)
or simply turn off his computer?

there has to be some clever ways to thwart terrorism, and possibly eliminate it.
to win the walker award for best non-evildoer

Here are some suggestions for small wonders that could reduce terrorism, if implemented:
1. Office of Homeland Security
2. Mossad (The Israeli Security/Intell Team)
3. Rainbow 6 (Tom Clancy's anti Terror team. In the book, it was a Multi
national force. It could be interesting to include that aspect too.)
4. MI-? (Whatever the UK organization that combats the IRA)

Although I am not sure if I want it included in the game or not, here are some suggestions on how to include it if it is.
 
Or you can make an anti terrorist building in every city to reduce the chance that terrorist actions occur.....
 
The key to eradicating terrorism is prevention.

If you actually create terrorism as a credible result of a number of causes, you just cut off the causes. Decolonize. Stop meddling in international affairs. Stop setting up puppet regimes. That's for international terrorists.

For domestic terrorists, you need a combination of strong internal intelligence/crime fighting, and strong social policies to prevent people from hating you. Finding the right balance between giving your people freedom to be happy and security to prevent people from abusing it...

Back to international terrorists, if someone was mad at you about colonialism or supporting a ruthless tyrranical regime to funnel off resources to you... you could find ways to raise their quality of life so terrorists were less likely to appear, and perhaps didn't appear at all. Apply domestic solutions internationally -- but you could only do this if you had some control over the regime that you're puppeting.

Of course, none of this applies if terrorism is just something that automatically happens because someone appears with an intent to destroy stuff for no reason. This version of terrorism would be really lame, because the solution would be equally as inane as the reason terrorism appears in the first place.
 
I'd like to see terrorism included it would add a lot to the game.
 
the only problem with terrrorism is that it does not really affect anything that much. More people die in car wrecks and bathtub falls then all acts of terrrorism combined...realistically there is little impact other than to stir up nationalism....
It is kind of like the Alamo or Thermoplea stories - from a purely military point of view all these battles really proved is that a better equiped and larger army could have held the enemy at bay - but they did stir nationalism...
 
Unfortunately "realism" and "more is more" are the only arguments you can't punch holes in. I don't think you should add something just because it's real, or worse, just because you can. But if someone says realism is the primary goal of Civ, or adding as much as you possibly can, then who am I to argue?

Any other argument that talks about how terrorism would add to strategy tend to disappoint me. Either the strategies are annoying, or the strategies require too many fundamental shifts for Civilization to feasibly pull off.

A strategy is annoying when terrorism is simple, or random, or both. Terrorism appears the same way that pollution does. The impact is equally trivial -- you have to clean it up, but it's very easy to, and cannot affect you. Not only that, but it's an inevitability. The same way that having a clean Civ doesn't help you much, having a terrorism free Civ wouldn't help you much either.

But when terrorism is complex with a chain of causes and effects... sure, having an effective anti-terrorism policy starts to become more useful and interesting than cleaning up pollution. But you require huge gameplay shifts in order to lay this groundwork for terrorism. If anything, any one of those huge groundwork-concepts is more interesting than terrorism itself. I'd love to explore this route, but I doubt we could expect it for Civ 4. But we could take steps towards it.

troytheface is pretty reasonable -- terrorism exists to stir up nationalism. Expanding espionage would be solid way to accomplish the same thing.
 
Why dont put "barbarian" guerrillas on the modern times?
 
because we were on modern times when info runs fast, these barbarian groups were much more sofisticated and could even determine the reasons why they attack a country and do acts of terrorism like bombing and sabotaging...
 
terrorism is linked with resistance (resistance to forceful occupation or force against helpless people in some way) during the American revolution the British considered them to be terrorist (the way the fought was not "honorable" because they hit and run instead of standing nice parrallel lines) it is all circumstancial and opionated terrorism can be good (in the case of the American revolution and also when germany was occupying the french during WW2)

but back to the point it would be fun to have terrorism in the game it would be like resistance but a more agressive step upward, if any of you have ever played rome: total war they have that concept some what down pact (cities can revolt and kick your entire army out and form an army of their own though they are not very well trained) perhaps they could include that in Civ4 but it should (or so i would hope) happen in extreme cases like of you are just killing off an entire people
 
yes, of course terrorism would be the result of some reason, but when those reasons touch the way of life of some civilizations, in theory the civilization in question had done nothing to provoke these acts....

For example do acts of terrorism to deprove the ocidental way of life....
 
Back
Top Bottom