The Age of Despair: Tech Tree Design

[Psychic_Llamas]

Righto guys, im giving thomas.berubeg a hand with the Age of Despare Mod, and hes given me the Tech Tree to do, so i need to start designing it.

Here is a link to the original thread: LINK

So far i have decided to base it loosly off of the current FfH tech tree for simplicity sake, but there should be a large focus on anti-deamon/anit-hell/hell-adaptation/survival techs.

I think most of technologies that the civilizations had discovered would have been forgotten, as when the deamons spread the few remaining bodies of mortals would be refugees and flee to remote areas to recoup.

Also, with the spread of hell a lot of existing technologies would be obsolete, the most obvious one that springs to mind is agriculture.

Whats the point of this thread then? id like to get all the ideas from you guys regarding what should be added to the tech tree, and removed, to make it play LOGICALLY and ENJOYABLY for the Age of Despair mod.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Please see attached file for a diagram of the proposed tech tree design.

Starting Techs:

• Crafting, Leads to Mining and Fishing)
• Education (Leads to Writing and Code of Laws)
• Animal Husbandry (leads to Nightmare Taming)
• Hunting (leads to Archery and Tracking)
• Survival (Leads to Deamonic Tracking, Hell Resistance, Hell Foraging, Warfare)
• Knowledge of the Ether (Leads to necromancy, elementalism, alteration and divination)
• Faith (Leads to Salvation, Priesthood and The Damned)

Second Teir Techs:

• Mining (Req Crafting, leads to Bronze working and Masonry)
• Fishing (Req Crafting, leads to sailing)
• Writing (Req Education, Leads to Mathematics)
• Code of Laws (Req Education, Leads to Feudalism, Currency)
• Nightmare Taming (Req Animal Husbandry, Leads to Nightmare Riding, Stirrups)
• Archery (Req Hunting, Leads to Stirrups, Bowyers)
• Tracking (Req hunting and Survival, Leads to animal handling, poisons, deamon tracking)
• Hell resistanace (Req Survival, leads to Deamonic resistance, Fire resistance)
• Hell Foraging (Req Survival)
• Warfare (Req Survival and Education, leads to Military strategy)
• necromancy (Req Knowledge of the Ether, Leads to Sorcery)
• elementalism (Req Knowledge of the Ether, Leads to Sorcery)
• alteration (Req Knowledge of the Ether, Leads to Sorcery)
• divination (Req Knowledge of the Ether, Leads to Sorcery)
• Salvation (Req Faith, Leads to Orders from Heaven, Righteousness)
• Priesthood (Req Faith, Leads to Religious Law, Commune with nature, Fanaticism)
• The Damned (Req Faith, Leads to Corruption of Spirit, malevolent Designs)

Third Teir Techs:

• Bronzeworking (Req Mining, Leads to Smelting)
• Masonry (Req Mining, Leads to Construction)
• Sailing (Req Fishing, Hell Resistance, Leads to Optics)
• Mathematics (req writing, leads to Engineering, Currency)
• Feudalism (Req code of laws, Trade)
• Nightmare Riding (Req Nightmare Taming, Animal Handling, Leads to Warhorses, Trade)
• Stirrups (Requires Archery, Nightmare Taming)
• Bowyers (Requires Archery, Ironworking, Leads to Precision)
• Animal handling (requires Tracking, Leads to Feral Bond)
• Poisons (Requires tracking)
• Deamon tracking (requires survival, tracking, leads to Deamon Hunting)
• Deamonic resistance (Requires Hell resistance, leads to Deamon hunting)
• Fire Resistance (Requires Hell resistance)
• Military Strategy (req Warfare, Leads to Deamon slaying)
• Sorcery (requires necromancy, elementalism, alteration OR divination, Leads to Deamon slaying, arcane lore, magic resistance)
• Religious Law (requires Preisthood, code of laws, leads to Theology)
• Commune with nature (requires Preisthood, Feral Bond)
• Fanaticism (requires Preisthood, code of laws, Leads to Malevolent designs, rage, righteousness)

Fourth Teir Techs:

• Smelting (Req Bronzeworking, leads to iron working)
• Construction (Req Masonry, leads to Engineering)
• Currency (Req Mathematic, code of laws, leads to taxation and trade)
• Warhorses (Req Nightmare riding, ironworking)
• Precision (Req bowyers)
• Feral Bond (Req Animal Handling, leads to animal mastery)
• Deamon hunting (Req deamon tracking, deamonic resistance, leads to banishing, deamon slaying)
• Arcane Lore (req sorcery, leads to strength of will, pass through the ether)
• Magic resistance (Req sorcery)
• Theology (req religious law)
• Malevolent designs (req Fanaticism, The damned)
• rage (Req Fanaticism, iron working)
• righteousness (Req fanaticism, salvation)

Fifth Teir Techs:

• Iron Working (req Smelting, leads to mithril working)
• Engineering (Req construction and mathematics, leads to Mithril Working, Machinery)
• Optics( req Sailing, Leads to Astronomy)
• taxation (req currency, leads to guilds, merchantilism
• trade (req nightmare riding, currency, sailing, leads to merchantilism)
• Animal mastery (req Feral bond, Iron working)
• deamon slaying (Req Deamon hunting, military strategy, sorcery)
• strength of will (Req arcane lore, deamonic resistance, leads to omniscience)
• pass through the ether (Req Arcane lore, leads to omniscience)

Sixth Teir Techs:

• mithril working (Req iron working, engineering, leads to divine essence)
• machinery (req engineering)
• Astronomy (Req Optics, Mathematics)
• Divine Essence (Req priesthood and mithril working)
• Guilds (Req taxation)
• Merchantilism (Req Taxation, Trade)
• Banishing (Req Strength of will, deamon hunting)
• Omiscience (req strength of will, pass through the ether)

Religious Techs:

• Corruption of Spirit (Req The Damned, Knowledge of the Ether)
• Orders from Heaven (Req Salvation, Code of Laws)
• Way of the Earthmother (Req Faith, Mining)
• Deams from the Deep (Req Faith, Fishing)
• Cult of Dragons (Req Faith, Feral Bond)
• Followers of Mulcarn (Req Faith, Fire Resistance)
• Way of the Shadows (req Faith, Hunting)

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I just realised i missed out the seafaring techs like fishing etc, lol.

im wondering how we do those because Thomas said that the seas are now really poisoned and dangerous...

EDIT: added in fishing (Req crafting) -> sailing (Req hell resistance) -> optics -> astronomy.

Sailing requires hell resistance to be able to sail on the ocean without being turned into mindless zombies (or whatever it is that happens if you go out into the oceans of hell)

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Thank you, I really like those, Psychic

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

any suggestions? changes? etc. ill wait a few days to see what everyone else thinks, and maybe for some more patches to come out then ill start modding it in.

 

[hbar]

Seems like techs such as Currency, Taxation, Mercantilism, and Guilds would have no place in the Age of Despair. I would imagine the 'economy' would revolve around scavenging, bartering, and coercion more. This might just be my opinion, but I'd think that only the most necessary trappings of civilization would still exist, even for the most enlightened of survivors.

You might even go so far as to have certain techs not researchable, but only found as a result from dungeon exploration (Marnok's mod comes to mind, as he's organized things to be very customizable). Obviously, these couldn't be prereqs for anything necessary.

I'd even go so far as to replace cottages with some type of quarry, trying to unearth advanced relics of the Age of Rebirth and tie the event system to them (You've discovered a hoard of dwarven weapons! etc.) This is probably far beyond the scope of the tech tree, so I'll stop rambling now...

 

[thomas.berubeg]

NO, don't stop rambling... those are all good ideas.

 

[scutarii]

age of despair really do not encourage trade and farming...logical...

various trade techs should be in after certain precons have been met: establishing open borders with not one but several neibourghs, peace between civs x amount of turns. Certain events like "barb" civs wiped out should boost trade significantly;

strong -walled - fortified cities encourage more trade etc.

just some ideas

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Psychic Llamas, is it possible for the infernal and associated civs have a different tech tree? more oreinted towards destruction of the world than survival.

I think the "good" tech Tree should be divided into three real sections:
Escape/ Survival
Containment
Fighting back
(though the techs you have now are great)

 

[Vitek]

What about something called like Scavenging that let you bulid:
1. Some structure that add and/or . It represents searching of old technologies and relics.
2. Scrap teams wandering around the map and exploring ruins (Is there going to be a lot of ruins I suppose?) and dungeons and such. It could work like exploring dungeons, granting gold, XP, techs rarely, artifacts, hammers (Is it possible to give hammers to nearby city from ruins like choppig woods does?) or losing team to cave-in, waking something big or luring deamons.

??

 

[civ_king]

they could get tech points towards techs instead of whole techs and simply make that more common,
it's like finding a gun with no previous knowledge and firing it, it shoots an object, "lets open the thing it shoots up, ah the powder burns that explains it", etc

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Psychic Llamas, is it possible for the infernal and associated civs have a different tech tree? more oreinted towards destruction of the world than survival.

I think the "good" tech Tree should be divided into three real sections:
Escape/ Survival
Containment
Fighting back
(though the techs you have now are great)

it is very possible to do this, and quite easy. do you think the survival line needs any more techs to show Escape/ Survival, Containment, or Fighting back?

Seems like techs such as Currency, Taxation, Mercantilism, and Guilds would have no place in the Age of Despair. I would imagine the 'economy' would revolve around scavenging, bartering, and coercion more. This might just be my opinion, but I'd think that only the most necessary trappings of civilization would still exist, even for the most enlightened of survivors.

thats actually a very good point which i hadnt concidered. any suggestions of what we could do instead?

You might even go so far as to have certain techs not researchable, but only found as a result from dungeon exploration (Marnok's mod comes to mind, as he's organized things to be very customizable). Obviously, these couldn't be prereqs for anything necessary.

thats another good idea. relic technologies lost from the previous age. i think if we did this i would make such techs after the basic tree is established and we have the mod running. it will be easy to add such stand alone techs.

various trade techs should be in after certain precons have been met: establishing open borders with not one but several neibourghs, peace between civs x amount of turns. Certain events like "barb" civs wiped out should boost trade significantly;

im not so sure it is possible to have techs only be researchable after certain game conditions are met...

What about something called like Scavenging that let you bulid:
1. Some structure that add and/or . It represents searching of old technologies and relics.
2. Scrap teams wandering around the map and exploring ruins (Is there going to be a lot of ruins I suppose?) and dungeons and such. It could work like exploring dungeons, granting gold, XP, techs rarely, artifacts, hammers (Is it possible to give hammers to nearby city from ruins like choppig woods does?) or losing team to cave-in, waking something big or luring deamons.

this could work...

how about:

Scavenging (req Eductaion and survival) -> Bartering (req crafting and animal husbandry) -> Currency (requires mathematics) -> Basic Trading (req Sailing or Nighmare riding)

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Hows this for an infernal alternative to the survival line:

Destruction-> Mortal Hunting (req tracking), Gating (Req KotE), Hellish Influence
Mortal Hunting -> Mortal enslavement -> Soul Harvesting (Req Strength of will)
Gating -> Greater gating (req Sorcery) -> Expert Gating (Req Arcane Lore)
Hellish Influence -> Deamonic Strength (req Gating)

the gating techs could unlock promotions that extend the lifetime of summons by one turn, and also planar gate type buildigns that bring more demons out automatically over time.

EDIT:

Warefar could then be researched if either survival or destruction have been learnt.

 

[xienwolf]

There is a "canResearch" callback for python, pretty sure.

That would allow you to easily block techs till certain conditions.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

There is a "canResearch" callback for python, pretty sure.

That would allow you to easily block techs till certain conditions.

really? well then thats a good idea. make it so the player must be at peace for 100 turns and have at least 3 foreing trade routes to research 'Basic Trade' and then make it so the infernals must have been destroyed and have foreign trade routes will all other civs to research 'trade'.

we might even add a new victory condition 'Return to civilization' which requires all hell terrain to be removed (maybe make it once the infernals are destroyed all hell terrain slowly degrades back to 'normal' terrain), have peace with all remaining civs for x turns and have a total population of y

 

[orangelex44]

It seems to me that a lot of the most "basic" techs shouldn't need to be researched, like Farming, Crafting, Mining, Hunting, etc. The civs still know how to do those things; the problem they have is the execution. They are no longer organized enough to make Mines; the land is too hellish for Farms; the easiest prey is no longer available to hunt. There hasn't been a long period of barbarism, like the Age of Ice, to make the survivors forget everything they knew.

Perhaps it would be better to ditch the techs that allow mines, roads, farms, and the like and just make them all take a lot longer to build. It makes the tech tree simpler; you still force the player into a long build-up period; and it makes a little more sense flavor-wise (IMHO). Having to guard the tons of necessary Workers against rampaging demons seems like a good idea, too.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

the problem then is what would the starting techs be? but i do agree flavour wise that is true

 

[Skitters]

regarding the Daemon line of techs, there seems to be a number on the lines of banishing/hunting/killing them....but perhaps there should also be the route - particularly for Keelyn - to bind them to your service?

Indeed, perhaps there could be a schism in the Daemon line where you can choose to either go the route of Banishing or Binding Daemons?

 

[Skitters]

It seems to me that a lot of the most "basic" techs shouldn't need to be researched, like Farming, Crafting, Mining, Hunting, etc. The civs still know how to do those things; the problem they have is the execution. They are no longer organized enough to make Mines; the land is too hellish for Farms; the easiest prey is no longer available to hunt. There hasn't been a long period of barbarism, like the Age of Ice, to make the survivors forget everything they knew.

Perhaps it would be better to ditch the techs that allow mines, roads, farms, and the like and just make them all take a lot longer to build. It makes the tech tree simpler; you still force the player into a long build-up period; and it makes a little more sense flavor-wise (IMHO). Having to guard the tons of necessary Workers against rampaging demons seems like a good idea, too.

Not sure about crafting and hunting, but perhaps the farming and mining techs would specifically relate to how you farm / mine in hell terrain?

 

[Vitek]

It seems to me that a lot of the most "basic" techs shouldn't need to be researched, like Farming, Crafting, Mining, Hunting, etc. The civs still know how to do those things; the problem they have is the execution. They are no longer organized enough to make Mines; the land is too hellish for Farms; the easiest prey is no longer available to hunt.

Then Huting could instead of ability to hunt animals provide ability to be hunted by various deadly species.

really? well then thats a good idea. make it so the player must be at peace for 100 turns and have at least 3 foreing trade routes to research 'Basic Trade' and then make it so the infernals must have been destroyed and have foreign trade routes will all other civs to research 'trade'.

we might even add a new victory condition 'Return to civilization' which requires all hell terrain to be removed (maybe make it once the infernals are destroyed all hell terrain slowly degrades back to 'normal' terrain), have peace with all remaining civs for x turns and have a total population of y

Isn't destruction of Infernals going to be ultimate goal? Why research trade after this is done? (More so having trade routes with everyone else mean no war anymore.)