The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

The spearman in the game so far are only heavy spearmen, there are no medium spearmen?? Not all spearmen units were heavy.

I also think that it is to easy building heavy units, they should have a requirement like Barracks or Smithy to even be built and there should be more medium and heavy type of units.

I presume that medium units is undisciplined units with no real uniformity in armour and weaponry while heavy units fight in tighter formations and should be almost untouchable by any unit accept other heavy units unless heavily outnumbered.
Axmen should be renamed to something more neutral, the same as swordsman, like Early Medium infantry, Ancient Medium infantry etc.
The unit could be a mix of several unit types, such as axmen, spearman and a swordsman to better reflect its nature. No barbarian army showed up on the field of battle with a line of axe swinging maniacs. Only the poor and young soldiers used axes/spiked clubs or spears where the more refined and older warriors often used a sword and shield since that was more effective in battle.
There should also be homogenous medium infantry such as levies militia, such as the Greek hoplite militias, though they should not be considered heavy units but they would have the same benefits against cavalry, but not skirmishers since they have much less armour.
Heavy units should be more homogenous and form a nice line of whatever troops.

Medium troops should never get a bonus against heavy units, medium units should be force to use numbers to win the day nothing else.

Heavy spearman should get slightly reduced values for attacking and defending cities since they loose some of their formation advantages there, but not by much.
Cities should mainly be guarded by militia type units with a high city defence value but a low overall power value. These militia units should also get a low first strike option to reflect missile and throwing weapons used by them as well as a good bonus against cavalry since they are probably mainly equipped with spears (or just give cavalry a very low city attack value like -50% or something, they should almost never attack cities directly).

For game balance heavy units should require a building to be built and cost much more to build than medium. Once built they are better for their upkeep cost, but it will take longer to build them, time you could spend building wonders and other juicy stuff :)

One other thing that hit me yesterday was when I fought the Carthaginians who were very powerful, half their units were Elephants, and almost the other half was horse archers. Only a small amount was infantry or skirmishers.
Elephants should not be so effective against cities (I’m not sure here if I’m correct but I don’t remember elephants ever being very usable in sieges other than work animals. They are to easily scared by fire if my memory serves me right.), and be so easy to build. They should require a rather expensive building to ever be built, that would cut down their numbers.

Any city should be able to build the cheap units such as medium infantry and skirmishers and light cavalry, but units such as archers, heavy infantry, chariots, horse archers etc should not be so easy to come by, then we would se a lot more low end units in the game.

I do enjoy this mod extremely, this is just me venting a few ideas and suggestions. :)
 
Gladi said:
Bright day
Axeman get +15 on city attack making them almost as good as spearmen for it. Plus I usually need two/three skirmisher with high retreat per every "hitter" to take cities.

oh and Maniac- exploration is avaible quite soon if you go after it. This is one strength and weakness at once of the mod, you can have Iron Working w/o researching some basic techs. And it seems to me AI does not prioritizes all that well (though I play just on noble).

Compare Axeman with Armored Spearman when atacking city:
Axe 5 str + 15% City = 5.75 vs. Armored Spear 6 str, and combat promotions this difference distinction bigger.
I never use skirmishers, because archers(and their upgrades) are better(more first strikes + later bigger str)

I noticed that AI tends to choose military techs than financial/scientific techs, I am oposite, so 1st financial tech and than military, so I save some turns. i.e.: I have currency and they don 't have mathematic, but they have bronze working, which after currency I have in 5-8 turns, or I go fast for masonry and build The Great Lighthouse + exploration(open borders) -> whoops I am forward for 4 techs than best AI, 10+ techs for rest.
 
I played and I had few thoughts:
Tin is useless, as I can see... It is not required for anything.
Slave Market is also useful, 2 unhappy is a lot, and all it gives is puny +1 industry. But if you made it to give +1 gold from laborer, as well as 1 free laborer? Then it would give you +1 industry and gold, and ability to turn extra pop into slaves which now give cash as well.
Just my thoughts.
 
Heav
Let us not forget about difference in hammers too. And javelinmen have higher retreat rate- not much but noticeable in the large scope and the first strikes are not that much loss.

TheJopa- tin is used for bronze weapons (+15), which you need smithy for.
 
Shqype said:
Uh, what are you talking about? Maybe I can fix the problem...

re: the unit flags: I'm talking about the flags that all the units fold, that have the civs symbol on it. they are about twice the normal size. i assume this is done on purpose, but it annoys me none-the-less. i was just wondering if there was a simple XML value I could change to put them back to their vanilla CIV size. It's not a big, deal purely cosmetic. an odd aesthetic prefrence of mine
 
Just finished playing this (as Dido--the Carthaginian, not the artist), and I have to say I really enjoyed this mod. Some suggestions and observations:

I played on Noble, and had a relatively easy time getting all the techs by 350-400 AD or so (which meant about 150-200 years with no more techs in the tree); everyone else also got the same techs (save the REALLY weak civs--I had to put Agamemmnon in his place so he was one of the last civs to have a few techs left to research by game end). This basically resulted in a stalemate for many, many turns, coupled by the strong civs preying (and killing off) on the weak. I didn't really have a problem with this, but it did get to a point when I couldn't fight anyone else as folks were pretty much even-matched or MPP'd beyond all reason.

The one exception was Gaul, which had the strongest unit in the game (14 attack!!), and took advantage of this well--I found myself forced to go along with Gaul's dismantling of the old order in Europe to prevent myself from getting attacked. By game end, Gaul, Carthage, and Aertes (can't remember civ name) had pretty much carved up everything that wasn't MPP'd and would result in total annihilation.

I liked the fact that Gaul was powerful at the end, reflecting the Franks and the eventual Holy Roman Empire, but maybe there's a way to spice up the end-game even more. Might there be more techs on the way, techs that can't be traded, or techs that allow the trading of specific ones? This might slow down the race a bit--I pulled far ahead at one point, but couldn't adequately take advantage of this (due to limitations of boat tech--building the wonder for Fire Galleys is CRUCIAL--as well as the lack of new infantry types).

As for the comments on elephants, I think they should be able to attack cities well (as you can't actually use them on a battlefield--the cities are usually where wars are won or lost vs. the open spaces). I actually developed the strategy, as there weren't any new units, of changing civics and building barracks etc. to max out the promotions, and then promoted catapults and elephants. Catapults went to city attack (can you do withdrawal for these?), whereas elephants went to withdrawal. I'd bomb the city to zero, then march in with elephants, praying for them to withdraw (they usually did). Then do it again with more elephants, and more, and more. Collateral damage would weaken the defenders to the point where infantry, even in the late game, could take down just about anything.
I've seen the AI use this strategy with catapults attacking and withdrawing too.

Once it gets to the Gallic 14 unit, though, I felt that there wasn't much left to do but defend--I'd recommend either killing the Gauls early or making sure that they're weak enough to not pose a threat in the late game. Because in my game, the Gauls HAD to have built hundreds of these 14 attackers, and there was really nothing to stop them (not even walls and fortresses seem to work well).

So I'd say I love this mod, but would hope for some more tech (or at least stagnation) or units in the late game. I actually had my culture up to 100% for the last 100 turns or so, and won with a cultural victory after having taken over all of Africa, Greece, Southern Italy, and Southern France (with some isolated spots on the Black Sea and Spain). As I mentioned, once Gaul got the 14 unit, it became hyperaggressive and started killing everything. Maybe the same could be done for folks based in the northeast part of the map??

Anyway, great mod, love what you've done.:king:
 
Oh, one more thing. What are the skirmishers for? I know in theory that they should do what my elephants did, but they're considerably weaker. I imagine they'd be better in non-city attacks, but big battles like these aren't all THAT common, at least in my games (I prefer the full on city attack or to attack with amphibious units)...
 
Good Sauce said:
re: the unit flags: I'm talking about the flags that all the units fold, that have the civs symbol on it. they are about twice the normal size. i assume this is done on purpose, but it annoys me none-the-less. i was just wondering if there was a simple XML value I could change to put them back to their vanilla CIV size. It's not a big, deal purely cosmetic. an odd aesthetic prefrence of mine

Somebody posted the solution to this problem a few post above.

And yes, it was intentional.
 
Heav said:
Compare Axeman with Armored Spearman when atacking city:
Axe 5 str + 15% City = 5.75 vs. Armored Spear 6 str, and combat promotions this difference distinction bigger.

Probably spearmen shouldn't get access to the city assault promotions.
 
Shqype said:
Spearmen do upgrade to Armored Spearmen; the Kambsor purposely doesn't upgrade. A Kambsor is not really a Spearman, and he doesn't get the Spearman defensive bonuses (and bonuses vs. units); instead he gets a first strike.

I don't think we should look at upgrades as simple technological progress (better metals etc). They can and should also be considered as tactical improvements (eg military reform). From this point of view, there wouldn't be anything strange in upgrading a kambsor to a spearman.
 
Heav said:
To gameplay:
I noticed vice royalty is too strong, first when tech is deicovered it give huge food bonuses and next when civic is adapted it is too much strong(together: +2 food from windmils, workshops and watermils:crazyeye: ), I think it can be only bonus food for civic, not for tech.

thamis said:
We have a civic that gives +1 food on farms... Also, there usually aren't that many windmills and watermills and especially workshops in the game.

Thamis, this is a bug I reported in v1.5... both Vice Royality (the tech) and Vice Royality (the civic) give the +1 food on watermills and workshops. Maybe the fact that they have the same exact name is a problem ?
 
thamis said:
Ok, I did some research:

The Mesopotamian High God was An, the God of the Skies and Heavens. He was a deus otiosus, a "God without duties" (i.e.: He did not have anything to do with the world apart from governing other gods). See: Soden, Wolfram von (1994). The Ancient Orient - And Introduction to the Study of teh Ancient Near East. Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing.

Thus, we can safely rename the Mesopotamian Pantheon to "Sky Worship".

Now, for Druidism I found that it is quite unclear how Druidism was practiced, as the Romans didn't care much for their mythology and simply mapped Roman gods and practices onto them, and that's all we have in texts.

But: It is a widely-believed theory that the earliest forms of religious worship were directed towards the moon, especially in prehistoric Europe. As Druidism is the first religion that is founded in the game, I sugggest we rename it to "Moon Worship". The Moon played an important part in Druidic mythology, and in many modern forms of Druidism (aka new-age pseudo-spirituality) the moon is seen as the main factor of life.

So now we would have:
- Moon Worship (Druidism)
- Sun Worship (Egyptian)
- Sky Worship (Mesopotamian)
- Jupiter Worhsip (Greco-Roman)
- Judiasm
- Zoroastrianism
- Christianity

I don't like these suggestions Thamis, because most ancient religions were based on Gods, who had names, stories, families, etc. Sun Worship makes me think of people worshipping the Sun... this is pre-classical, pre-historical, and I'd dare say pre-civilization stuff.
Cult of the Sun God would be a much better name.
Mesopotamian religions, including the Phoenician one, had gods with different names as someone noted, but if I'm not wrong they all had in common the Cult of a Trinity: the major gods were 3 forming a trinity.
Judaism: I think this religion is out of place, since it is civ-specific and the civ is not in the mod. Monotheism, as someone suggested, might be better... it was the only monotheist religion until Christianity, which has a particular meaning in the mod so I think it would be ok. The word Druidism doesn't suggest a religion IMO, Nature Cult would be the best bet.
Greco-Roman polytheism...: I have to elaborate :P
 
Welcome back OneDreamer :) [Aside from your terrorist comments]
 
Balam said:
Oh, one more thing. What are the skirmishers for? I know in theory that they should do what my elephants did, but they're considerably weaker. I imagine they'd be better in non-city attacks, but big battles like these aren't all THAT common, at least in my games (I prefer the full on city attack or to attack with amphibious units)...

Bright day
Now I never played with elephants, but skirmishers have first strikes incresing their damage output somewhat.

And we want our new fix!!
 
onedreamer said:
Thamis, this is a bug I reported in v1.5... both Vice Royality (the tech) and Vice Royality (the civic) give the +1 food on watermills and workshops. Maybe the fact that they have the same exact name is a problem ?
Which should give the bonus, the tech or the civic? Civic, I suspect.
 
onedreamer said:
Probably spearmen shouldn't get access to the city assault promotions.

Hmm Spearman does have access to the city assault promotions.

Gladi:
Javeliner vs. Archer
When you have built baracks + adopted Council of elders, you gain 8 exp for new trained unit(= 2 promotions), give to the archer 2 windrawal promotions so archer has 50%(vs. 55% javeliner) so it is small diference, but archer has more chances to 1st strikes + they are upgradeable to better version(str 8).
 
I submitted what is (I hope) the final version for release 1.8 to the team. Within a few hours Thamis should be able to download and test it, then decide if it's ready for release.

Expect a large changelist!
 
Will we ever see a map as big from the Civ 3 TAM?

Great MOD, but it just seems less epic because of the map size.
 
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