The Asian Conquests

[Fox Mccloud]

I've been thinking that the Conquests that came with the Civ3 expansion pack was a little western-centric. Most of the conquests only had Europe and the Mid East in it. Japan got a whole conquest, but China, was only in the WWII conquest (!!!!). How can China, the nation that has perhaps the most history, in just 1 conquests? I want to have a little conquests series centered on East Asia.

The first conquest will include China, India, Japan, Thailand, Tibet, etc. and will represent the rise of the first Asian civilizations. The time will be from 4000 BC til the collapse of the Zhou Dynasty in China and the beginning of the Warring States Period.

The second Conquest should be about the rise of Qin and Han China, from the beginning of the Warring States Period to and will also focus on the fall of the Joseon dynasty of Korea, and the rise of the Yamato in Japan.

The 3rd Conquest will cover the Three Kingdoms period in Chinese history.

The 4th Conquest will be about the Sui through the Tang Dynasties, about 600 to 1278AD.

A 5th conquest is the Mongol conquest of East Asia, and the Chinese Yuan dynasty.

The 6th will include the Ming and Qing dynasties.

These are the ideas I have right now.

Any comments, ideas, etc?

 

[John_Deere]

The reason for it being somewhat Western-centric, is because there were 7 conquests or so, to span several thousand years. However, I believe that there should've been a least one more Asian conquest. I would be interested in playing some of these conquests, especially the Mongol one.

I think you should definetely add civs to the north of China that come in and invade from time to time. It would be cool to fight them off, or maybe even play as one of them!

Like the ideas, and it would be interesting to see it made.

 

[Fox Mccloud]

The first thing I'll be needing, though, is a map.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Fox I don't know if you know it yet, but I redid the Russian Shock Infantry for you, (not to be confused with my WW2 Russian Infantry)

 

[Onza]

THis is a very good idea, Fox, I'll definately second the Asian conquest series (just as I would in the case of proposition of New World co0nquest series, too, not just a couple of compains as it is to-day).

John Deere is right about adding some "civs" to the north of China. - Those ethinc groups were absol;utely essential in Chinese history even though they hardly qualify as true "civiklizations" at least in duration of the B.C.-period and during the first millenium of Anno Domini.
THe tribes living to the North and North-West and West of the "Middle Kingdom" were treated as barbarians by the emperial Chinese historiogpaphs and that was technically correct as they were at a very low stage of social, moral and technoloical developemnt and their nomadic lifestyle contrasted sharply with the mode of life of the civilized farmers and citimen united under the political power and cultural traditions of the Middle Kingdom(s).
BUt the barbarians were strong. In fact - strong enough to be a very serious thread to the ancient China and that led to several examples of dynastic marriages of some of numerous Chinese princesses and barbarian chiefs. And some dinasties were actually esablished by barbarians - not only Yuan and Qing, but also Tang and even more so is right for regional powers like the Jin dinasty.

But I would not advise to included Japan and Tibet in the first of your conquest series. - Japan as a spesific culture and power only becames more or less visible in the Far East after the "Three kingdoms period' was over. So this country wiuld fit to the conquest No.4 and on.
Tibet started to develop state structures and strong nomadic-style armies much earlier than Japan but also quite late compared to China itself and could be included in the conquests starting from No.3.

You should add Zhurzhen people (the Jin dinasty covering territory of north China and a bit of Korea and the Maritme Region of Russia). And maybe even the Bohai kingdom - the misterious state in the mountains of the Southern Maritime Region and North-East part of to-days Korea, that was weak in terms of armies but surprisingly strong in terms of ethics and culture and sea commerce. The Bohai people were in fact a conglomerate of the predessedors present-day native forest tribes of the Russian Far Eas and some of North Korean populations. They build small beautiflu cities in the dense mountaineous taiga, maintained good road network and well-euipped sea ports and traded to Japan, China and Korean kingdoms. They left beatiful pieces of Art and stone carvings, statues and stellas.

In the 10th century, the invading hords of Jin Empire destroyed this unique forest culture and captured the land... - only to get later destroyed by the all-crashing arimes of Mongols.

Hope this helps
I am not sure I can paint a map... :-( With the Google-Earth system you cen gen an accurate map of any place on earth but... not enough time to be honest.

 

[Stormrage]

I like these ideas

 

[Fox Mccloud]

SoG, I made a reply in your thread.

Onza,

1, Of course I will add in Mongols, Huns, etc. They were very important to the Middle Kingdom's history, even if they are barbarians.

2, Although I know Tibet wasn't of a civ in ancient times, there were some Civs in India. I want India to be included (they were "left out" for ALL the whole Conquests!) Since India is just south of Tibet, Tibet will probably be included.

3, I was thinking of having a Manchurian civ in "north east China". I will have to research on Zhurzhens and Bohais to see if they are worthy to be included as anything more than Barbarian tribes in my conquests.

Thanks for the ideas!

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Balhae (Bohai) was the successor state of Goguryeo (one of the three Korean kingdoms before the peninsula was unified under Shilla) and encompassed present-day Heilongjiang and Jilin provinces. It was founded by Dae Jo-young who led the remnants of Goguryeo to this region (which was at the time settled by the Malgal [Mohe] peoples) and established the state of Balhae. There's some controversy between Chinese and Koreans about Balhae. The Koreans claim that Goguryeo is definitely a Korean (or at least a mix between Korean and Malgal) culture and, if I recall correctly, they cite various examples ranging from pottery styles to the little tidbit that "Dae Jo-young" is a uniquely Korean name (but whether or not Dae Jo-young really was a Korean or a Malgal who adopted the Korean culture is up for debate as well). The Chinese on the other hand claim Balhae as a Central Asian state and was largely influenced by Chinese culture. Balhae was not a major military power, but were involved in trade and they were nonetheless considered somewhat of a potential threat to the Chinese Empire. They got overrun by nomadic factions (such as the Khitans who set up the Liao Empire, then later the Jurchen Jin Empire and then the Mongol Empire). Not a very happy ending for Balhae, to say the least! Jurchens did regard themselves of hailing from the Malgal people, though. There are also still some Koreans of Goguryeo descent in Jilin province (my aunt is one of them ).

 

[Fox Mccloud]

It sound's like the Balhae should just be part of a Korean civ, then.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Not exactly. The Koreans would agree that it is indeed a Korean culture, but there's also the fact that the original inhabitants of that region were the Malgal peoples, who are probably (although it's not entirely certain) related to Mongolic peoples of Northeastern Asia / Siberia as Onza mentioned. There was likely a Korean aristocracy, but it's also likely that a lot of the subjects were Malgal and there could have been a two-way street of cultural exchange.

But then again, it's kind of difficult to find information on Balhae since there are so many ambiguities.

 

[Onza]

Interesting shift of emphses depending on the speaker's country of origin...
You are from China, Ogedei, aren't you?
May I ask what does the name 'Balhae' mean? Here in Russia, this culture is known under the Chinese name of 'Bohai' that means leterally 'the sea of Bo'.
What are the 'Malgal' people? - Where is there main range and what is their linguistic group? - I am curious as i never heard of such a tribe in any part of North-Eastern Asia.

We all know perfectly well the Korean trend to be hugely biased in just any issue that might consern Korean history/culture/territory/prestige and what-ever-else - up to the degree of disfiguring and angling real history. So, unfortunately, it does not seem valid enough to rely on the Korean interpretations of the regional historical events.
The Chinese may also do the same but to lesser extent, since the Chinese empire have always been the largerst and most stable and actually the most ancient in the Far East - they don't feel such an urge to argue so frantically about anything concerning China (except maybe just one thing - Chinese claims on the Russian territories up to the Urals based on the middle-age history of... not China itself but the Mongols ))).

So I would agree more with the Chinese point of view ragrding the Bohai.
Anyway - just about all the civilizations of the Far East had to get under huge influence of the Middle Kindom once they got settled and started to live in a civilized way and building cities instead of nomadic yurts on the endless steppes. Much less time was needed for the Bohai conglomerate to absorb the Chinese material culture and some elements of spitritual culture, too - since none of the enthnic gruop most likely consisting the Bohai 'melting pot' was ever nomadic.
In addition, Ogedei is most likely right when mentioning Korean social elite that presumably was a catalyst for generating a settled city culture to emerge in the deep mountain forests of this trans-border region where there are Russian, Chinese, and Korean borders meet today.
And probably, with all the cultural influence from China and social structural input from Korea, still absolute majourity of Bohai kingdom population was the native forest tribes. They entered into the only period of civilized life in their history - through formation of the only state of their own. The decendants of those natives still roam in the mountain forests of the Russian Far East and in the neighbouring CHinese provinces. They belong to the Manzhou-Tungus language family which is indeed somewhat related to the Mongol and Buryat languages but only distantly.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

"Balhae" is the Goguryeo name of Bohai. Russian historians usually refer to Chinese sources when it comes to Bohai, but when it comes to who the Bohai people really were, it's very controversial. However, according to the records of the Tang Dynasty, Bohai was a vassal of the Goguryeo kingdom and there is no dispute that the founder of the Bohai kingdom was from Goguryeo.

The "Malgal" are also known as the "Mohe" people. If I recall correctly, their language group is related to Mongolic peoples in Northeastern China and Siberia. Malgal probably doesn't exist anymore as they were absorbed into other groups (Koreans, Jurchens, Khitans, etc.).

Personally, I think the Korean claims have some valid points, even if it may be a bit skewed in favor of Korean history. The reason for some of the biases is largely due to Korea's very complicated history with its power-grabbing neighbors - Japan and China. Both nations having meddled in Korean affairs.

In the West, Balhae is more often viewed as a Korean state with a large native population of Tungustic peoples.

The Chinese will claim anyone. It's one of those really nasty habits. The funny thing is that those territories that China now claims (Tibet, Xinjiang, Jilin, Heilongjiang, and Inner Mongolia) were all lands ruled under the Manchu Qing Dynasty (which the Chinese themselves do not consider to be "Chinese" rule). China was not always a stable power either; dynasties constantly rose and fell.

And no, I'm not from China. I'm of "Yue" ancestry and my family is from Vietnam and China, but not myself.

 

[Fox Mccloud]

So, should the Bolhai people be part of a Manchu civ?

 

[Onza]

>So, should the Bolhai people be part of a Manchu civ?

- I'd rather agree with the view-point that it should be regarded as a part of Korea in game if it can't be separated into a stand-alone culture with, for instanse locked alliance with Korea (even though I disagree with the concept of the Bohai being a part of Korean state in reality. It was an independent state with unique social and cultural specifics enough to differentiate it both from China and from Koguryo). It can definately not be a part of the Jurzhen civ (the Jin empire officially) - the ethnic anscestors of the future Manchu civ. Zhurzhen tribe were around about the end of the first millenium A.D. - contemporary of Bohai, and their direct descendants, the manchu people were arounf in 16-20 centuries A.D. and in 1644 they conquered the Ming China and founded the barbaric last dynasty of emperial China - the Qing. After that there were various republican governements in China.

>Personally, I think the Korean claims have some valid points, even if it may >be a bit skewed in favor of Korean history. The reason for some of the >biases is largely due to Korea's very complicated history with its power->grabbing neighbors - Japan and China.

- Very true, I agree.

>The Chinese will claim anyone. It's one of those really nasty habits.
- True again

>I'm of "Yue" ancestry
- Wow.... My respect!
Is your native language Hakka? Or Vietnamese?
And I wonder, how come that the Chinese with all their tremendous armies beginning from the Han dinasty and official policy of relocating hundreds of thousands of the ethnic Chinese (the Han people) farmers to the south of the great Changjiang river during Song dinasty never could conquer and assimilate Vietnam?

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

- Wow.... My respect!
Is your native language Hakka? Or Vietnamese?
And I wonder, how come that the Chinese with all their tremendous armies beginning from the Han dinasty and official policy of relocating hundreds of thousands of the ethnic Chinese (the Han people) farmers to the south of the great Changjiang river during Song dinasty never could conquer and assimilate Vietnam?

Teocheow - one of the Minnan languages; Hakka is also a Minnan language. I'm also part-Vietnamese.

The thing about Vietnam is that they're amazingly stubborn.

A good Conquests scenario would be the Chinese Warring States Period. Intense competition, several factions vying for control - It'd be like a Chinese Sengoku scenario.

 

[Onza]

>The thing about Vietnam is that they're amazingly stubborn.

- )))))))))))))))))))))))

>A good Conquests scenario would be the Chinese Warring States Period. >Intense competition, several factions vying for control - It'd be like a >Chinese Sengoku scenario.

Yeah, that'd be cool! Sengoku of the 1 millenium B.C. in the great Chinese plains with interfearance of nomdic barbarians and complicated history - truy cool scenario! A problem is that the Sengoku is fantastically well-supported with vast assortment of unique Japanese units. And for China - there are maybe 4-5 units at all!

 

[Plotinus]

I agree that the Conquests were very Eurocentric, although to be fair, how many of their customers would have heard of the Warring States period, let alone want to play a Conquest about it?

Still, at least there were two Asian Conquests (if you count the WWII one). Africa didn't make it at all, apart from ancient Egypt and Carthage.

 

[Fox Mccloud]

And India! How could you not have India????

Ogedei,

Teocheow? I never even heard of that language....

Onza,

I don't know if the Bohai deserve to be a separate civ, so i'd make their land belong to either Korea or Manchus. Not China, though, they already represent enough land.

 

[7ronin]

Fox, several people are already working on an epic Asian scenario/mod under the title Battlefield Asia. Also, you might want to check out an earlier Chinese mod/scenario at Three Kingdoms. I haven't played it so I can't comment on either its historical accuracy or its success as a game.

Rather that start at 4000 B.C. and end at the Warring States period, why don't you just concentrate on the Warring States period itself. Make the seven main rivals human players and leave the six or seven minor states and the northern "barbarians" to the A.I. Forget India, Tibet, Korea, and Japan as they had no effect on China at that time. This would also permit you to use the one existing China map.

Whatever choice you do make, I would strongly urge you to read How to Design a Scenario for some sound advice on conceptualizion and approach.

It also helps to have a snappy title which will pull in people to help you and eventually to play your creation.

 

[Onza]

Fox, the Zhurhen - Jin empire (700 years after that turnuing into the Manchu and the Qing dinasty) - were the deadly enemies of the Bohai, and they destryed it! How can they possibly "represent" their own victims??

(after destruction the freaking Jin had not actually much use of the former lands of Bohai, especially in the East. They just looted and burnt Bohai cities, killed and scattered people, set land claim and left)

If any other civ to represent Bohai - it should be Korea, not Jin.

Are you going to included civs of the South East Asia in your scenario? - Vietnam is a must in any case... - they had "specific" relations with the Chinese empire for milleniums... Thailand, Laos, Myanmar, Kambogia are cute and interesting, too!

Are you going to change city graphics and wonders names?
One suggestion is right now - the Oracle should be the most ancient of all the great wonders and there is candidate to represent it in Asian version:
the Tiantang - "Temple of Heavens".

It is currently in the central Beijing square "Tian-an-men" ("Gates of the Heavenly peace") but CHinese civilization has long traditions of worshipping Heavens and making formalized mantic ceremonies to learn the Will of the Heavens (exact replica of the Delphy Oracle but mor elaborated). The traditions is assumed to have starte3d even before establishment of the first documented dinsty - Shang (prir to 1800 B.C.)