Ideas for Korea

[Evie]

That...could actually work. Joseon as modern Korea, but admiral Yi as a leader (since leaders don't have to be rulers, *at all*) who bring Imjin war flavor and abilities (and possibly appropriate UUs, thoughnleaders are supposed to be more timeless)l

 

[gdr_willter]

I'm also talking about three Korean civs here: Silla-Joseon-Korea. If you're going to have Goryeo in Exploration, then *yes* it's obvious Joseon should be in modern, because obviously you want to have Joseon somehwere. Not having Joseon at all if you have three Koreas would just be stupid.

There are two meaningful three-Korea options as far as I'm concerned: Silla-Goryeo-Joseon, or Silla-Joseon-Korea. It's all about whether Joseon and its potential uniques (Hwacha, Turtle ships, etc) better fit the Exploration of Modern eras, and that's where you and I disagree. I don't bekieve THAT question is obvious.

Goryeo is the most underrepresented Korean history in the Civ franchise, but at the same time, we know that FXS is conscious of Goryeo because they already picked Wang Geon, the Taejo of Goryeo, as the Korean leader in Civ 3 and 4. It will be very weird when they skipped Goryeo for any reason, because it is the real merchant country (at least within the Korean history tho) fit well in the Exploration Age way more than Joseon.

And you know, Korea is mainly the title of the existing Republic of Korea. If we have Silla-Joseon-Korea, you think the Korea Civ will have what for their unique features? Modern Korea with Byeolgigun and Independent Activists seems so unlikely. Modern Korea fighting against Modern Meiji utilizing their K-9 artillery won't make sense for me.

 

[Evie]

And yet Joseon fighting against Meiji using Imjin war weapons (ie, any of the UUs they're most famous for) is also going to feel wrong.

We really need two Joseon, that's the problem (well, half of it, two Joseon wouldn't solve the Goryeo problem.). Which was part of the point with Korea in Modern - they represented the later Joseon dynasty and the (Joseon)Empire of Korea. What their uniques would be, I don't know. But it would have to be nineteenth century Joseon/Empire of Korea material

It's a tricky problem any way you look at it. A proper representation of what Joseon is best known for belong in Exploration, a proper representation of overall Korean history needs Joseon in modern. It cannot be in both without using some trickery.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And yet Joseon fighting against Meiji using Imjin war weapons (ie, any of the UUs they're most famous for) is also going to feel wrong.

We've seen Buganda units holding spears alongside gunpowder weapons, so I don't know if it would be as odd as people think.

Of course, the Hwacha last game was an early field cannon replacement, which lasted until it upgraded into Machine guns, which would include the Modern Age in this game.

We really need two Joseon, that's the problem (well, half of it, two Joseon wouldn't solve the Goryeo problem.). Which was part of the point with Korea in Modern - they represented the later Joseon dynasty and the (Joseon)Empire of Korea. What their uniques would be, I don't know. But it would have to be nineteenth century Joseon/Republic of Korea.

It's a tricky problem any way you look at it

Yes, I really doubt they would split the Joseon dynasty into two separate civs. I agree that timelines are weird but honestly if the Ottomans end up getting into Modern as well, it would roughly be 50 years historically after the founding of Joseon.

 

[gdr_willter]

And yet Joseon fighting against Meiji using Imjin war weapons (ie, any of the UUs they're most famous for) is also going to feel wrong.

Not so much, because it was partially true. When France/USA/Japan firstly tried to threaten Korea, Joseon army still had used the rifling-less muzzleloaders, and navy had used Panokseon and Turtle Ships, which all are not so much diffrent with the one they firstly addopted in Imjin war. Of course there was an exeption like Bulranggipo (meaning French cannon), but not so much better than the others. Joseon dynasty finally found that they are in trouble and way behind than the Western, so they started the effort to become strong Modern nation from then. This effort came to fruition as half success, but not enought to beat Imperial Japan.

We really need two Joseon, that's the problem (well, half of it, two Joseon wouldn't solve the Goryeo problem.). Which was part of the point with Korea in Modern - they represented the later Joseon dynasty and the (Joseon)Empire of Korea. What their uniques would be, I don't know. But it would have to be nineteenth century Joseon/Republic of Korea.

It's a tricky problem any way you look at it

It can be easy, just follow the common way to describe it. Silla-Goryeo-Joseon is good enough.

 

[Evie]

That first quote was more in reference to gdr's post that Korea using k-9 artillery

The Ottoman point is well made, though the part where they remained the chief Middle East empire until after the first world war and were a major participant in it does seem a significant difference to me - it's only a decade, but it's one of the most important decades in history.

 

[Evie]

In my experience, easy or simple solutions almost never are, they're just the solutions that best fit someone's perspective. Once you start looking at multiple persepctIves instead of just one, "easy" almost always fall apart.

I find that to be the case here. I get your perspective, and from it, it's an easy solutions. But it's not the only valid perspective, others have been posted in this very thread, and once you look at them too, the easy solution is not so easy.

I can see a lot of potential scenarios - one, two or three Korea, Goryeo-Joseon, Joseon-Korea and other combinations beside, with a lot of potential valid reasons for each. All of them are obvious to someone, none of them are obvious to everyone.

I find more merit in considering all of them.

 

[gdr_willter]

In my experience, easy or simple solutions almost never are, they're just the solutions that best fit someone's perspective. Once you start looking at multiple persepctIves instead of just one, "easy" almost always fall apart.

I find that to be the case here. I get your perspective, and from it, it's an easy solutions. But it's not the only valid perspective, others have been posted in this very thread, and once you look at them too, the easy solution is not so easy.

In opposition, the hard problem also can be just the result of the perspective. You are focusing of the early period of Joseon, but we can represent the period with the Leader. Admiral Yi and Sejong the Great can do it well, as like you already found. 500 years of Joseon is enough long but we don't have to divide it for the Civs over two Ages. We can leave the Exploration things to Goryeo, and it obviously will make it. The remaining Modern Age is the biggest challenge for Joseon (including Empire of Korea) which couldn't overcome IRL. Let's give them a second chance in Civ 7.

 

[Evie]

If I were focusing only on early Joseon, I would say "Joseon can only ever be in Exploration." I'm not, becsuse I am looking at multiple point of views. And it's very rare, when you take the time to look at multiple point of view, that there are "easy" solutions.

Take a leader: yes, that could work, but part of the design plan for leaders is for them to have abilities that apply for most of the game. That's not a hard limitation, but it's a consideration that needs to be taken into account. You can't just have admiral Yi grant Imjin wars UUs and call it a day, you have to figure out how to turn that in a long-term abillity.

Doesn't mean it cannot be an answer. It's probably the best option mentioned to date. But it won't be an easy answer.

 

[gdr_willter]

Doesn't mean it cannot be an answer. It's probably the best option mentioned to date. But it won't be an easy answer.

Come on, don't be stucked in a single word. It is literally/technically simple and easy way than the two delicately divided Joseon Civs.

Let's just reach the good conclusion: we think differently.

 

[Evie]

Well, I think that we can certainly agree on: we think differently.

 

[Krajzen]

Couldn't we get Goguryeo as an ancient civ which would precede both Korean and Manchurian civs? (it could also sort of - kinda - precede era II Mongolia, until we get something better, and the only possibilities here would have been Xiongnu, Xianbei and Rouran)

Goguryeo -> Silla or Goryeo -> Joseon
Goguryeo -> Balhae or Liao or Jurchen -> Qing
Goguryeo or Xiongnu -> Mongols -> Qing

As you can see, it would have been very efficient use of slot, and it's a very interesting and well documented civ on its own After adding just three more civs we would suddenly have four historical paths for Chinese, Koreans, Mongols and Manchu. Not that I expect to see them in the game soon, but then there are also mods...

Hell we could even go Goguryeo -> choose Balhae or Mongols -> then choose either Joseon or Qing, then we have simultaneously covered three "national paths" at once, more or less historically

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Goguryeo -> Silla or Goryeo -> Joseon

Silla probably couldn't be Exploration considering the Emile Bell is a wonder in Antiquity.

 

[gdr_willter]

Couldn't we get Goguryeo as an ancient civ which would precede both Korean and Manchurian civs? (it could also sort of - kinda - precede era II Mongolia, until we get something better, and the only possibilities here would have been Xiongnu, Xianbei and Rouran)

Goguryeo -> Silla or Goryeo -> Joseon
Goguryeo -> Balhae or Liao or Jurchen -> Qing
Goguryeo or Xiongnu -> Mongols -> Qing

As you can see, it would have been very efficient use of slot, and it's a very interesting and well documented civ on its own

Goguryeo can be a good choice indeed... I even will not deny the possibility that we can get Goguryeo instead of Silla but with a small chance.

On the other hand, I can't come up with the proper Goguryeo Wonder.

The famous tombs are not so good for looking outside. They have very speciall wall paintings inside, but can't be shown in the game. It rather can be more effective when we get them as the relics.

And there is the Gwanggaeto Stele. Could it be the wonder as like the Aksumite Great Stele? Maybe, but I'm not so confident. Of course its existence and contents are extremely important references of the regional history, but the stele itself is basically the huge stone covered with a lot of letters.