The attack on Syria

Here come the inspectors!

...and there they sit.
I notice the resounding silence at this. I'm disappointed, I expected some sort of "it's propaganda, in fact the inspectors have already finished and announced they found nothing but were afraid their discovery would be covered up by the evil western media which control the entire world save for the free state of Russia".
 
You are right. It's propaganda, in fact the inspectors have already finished and announced they found nothing.

Also, they are cleared to go and start working tomorrow.
http://tass.com/world/1000189

And you can already begin "Russia has tampered with the evidence!" hysteria.
 
You are right. It's propaganda, in fact the inspectors have already finished and announced they found nothing.
Also, they are cleared to go and start working tomorrow.
http://tass.com/world/1000189

And you can already begin "Russia has tampered with the evidence!" hysteria.

In RUSSIA you announce you FINNISHED before you start work tomorrow ?
 
I think red_elk was being ironic or something.

Afaik they arrived the 14th and have no green light until 18th. Time to do some cleaning and make up some proof?

Anyway i find all these stories about the use of chemical weapons absurd for both sides. For Syria and Russia it means more bad press in west media at least (a bit more to add to the lot) and some random bombing, given it does not mean any relevant tactical advantage; for the west, it only means a chance to espend some millions in cruise missiles that are not going to change anything in the conflict as a whole...

I mean what is the point? :dunno:
 
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Ivan is crazy !
Video game footage as evidence what the hell ?

As for the civilians I have a feeling that Russians have been very persuasive
I believe the Russians call it dicipline of the revolver.

Russia claimed to have evidence of secret collaboration between a Western government and Islamic extremists in Syria
November, the Russian defense ministry claimed that month to have uncovered “irrefutable evidence” of cooperation between the U.S. military and Islamic State militants. However, images offered as proof on the ministry’s various Twitter feeds were identified within hours as screenshots taken from a video game and clips of Iraqi combat operations against ISIS fighters

DaqBWNzXkAA65yX.jpg


https://theintercept.com/2018/04/13...idence-chemical-attack-syria-staged-lets-see/
 
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I mean what is the point? :dunno:
It's a treacherous plan to make US waste money.
With each chemical attack they launch twice more missiles which do less damage than before.
Eventually, they should blow up a dog's kennel with 65536 cruise missiles.
 
Ivan is crazy !
Video game footage as evidence what the hell ?
Crappy game. They should show some decency and use Arma 3 instead.
It's a treacherous plan to make US waste money.
With each chemical attack they launch twice more missiles which do less damage than before.
Eventually, they should blow up a dog's kennel with 65536 cruise missiles.
So you agree there is not benefit for the west on staging the chemical attack?
 
There is only one party who has obvious benefit from staging the chemical attack, and it's not the West.
 
So i must understand that rebels are manipulating western powers.
 
Anyway i find all these stories about the use of chemical weapons absurd for both sides. For Syria and Russia it means more bad press in west media at least (a bit more to add to the lot) and some random bombing, given it does not mean any relevant tactical advantage; for the west, it only means a chance to espend some millions in cruise missiles that are not going to change anything in the conflict as a whole...

I mean what is the point? :dunno:
As I've said the first time in this thread, I'd say it's more about deeper/larger geopolitical objectives than truly what's happening in Syria anymore (though enforcing the taboo on chemical weapons is still worth something). Russia checking how far it can pushes or intimidate the West, and the West wondering how strongly it can answers and how far Russia can be pushed back. At the same time, Putin can sell his tough guy image to his "voters" and the West can say they prevent barbarity about gasing civilians.
It's about PR and probing for weaknesses.
 
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Meanwhile, foreign journalists start arriving to Douma, interviewing eyewitnesses and telling us strange stories...
This is the story of a town called Douma, a ravaged, stinking place of smashed apartment blocks – and of an underground clinic whose images of suffering allowed three of the Western world’s most powerful nations to bomb Syria last week. There’s even a friendly doctor in a green coat who, when I track him down in the very same clinic, cheerfully tells me that the “gas” videotape which horrified the world – despite all the doubters – is perfectly genuine.
War stories, however, have a habit of growing darker. For the same 58-year old senior Syrian doctor then adds something profoundly uncomfortable: the patients, he says, were overcome not by gas but by oxygen starvation in the rubbish-filled tunnels and basements in which they lived, on a night of wind and heavy shelling that stirred up a dust storm.
As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself and, as he speaks good English, he refers twice to the jihadi gunmen of Jaish el-Islam [the Army of Islam] in Douma as “terrorists” – the regime’s word for their enemies, and a term used by many people across Syria. Am I hearing this right? Which version of events are we to believe?
By bad luck, too, the doctors who were on duty that night on 7 April were all in Damascus giving evidence to a chemical weapons enquiry, which will be attempting to provide a definitive answer to that question in the coming weeks.
France, meanwhile, has said it has “proof” chemical weapons were used, and US media have quoted sources saying urine and blood tests showed this too. The WHO has said its partners on the ground treated 500 patients “exhibiting signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”.
At the same time, inspectors from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) are currently blocked from coming here to the site of the alleged gas attack themselves, ostensibly because they lacked the correct UN permits.
Before we go any further, readers should be aware that this is not the only story in Douma. There are the many people I talked to amid the ruins of the town who said they had “never believed in” gas stories – which were usually put about, they claimed, by the armed Islamist groups. These particular jihadis survived under a blizzard of shellfire by living in other’s people’s homes and in vast, wide tunnels with underground roads carved through the living rock by prisoners with pick-axes on three levels beneath the town. I walked through three of them yesterday, vast corridors of living rock which still contained Russian – yes, Russian – rockets and burned-out cars.
So the story of Douma is thus not just a story of gas – or no gas, as the case may be. It’s about thousands of people who did not opt for evacuation from Douma on buses that left last week, alongside the gunmen with whom they had to live like troglodytes for months in order to survive. I walked across this town quite freely yesterday without soldier, policeman or minder to haunt my footsteps, just two Syrian friends, a camera and a notebook. I sometimes had to clamber across 20-foot-high ramparts, up and down almost sheer walls of earth. Happy to see foreigners among them, happier still that the siege is finally over, they are mostly smiling; those whose faces you can see, of course, because a surprising number of Douma’s women wear full-length black hijab.
I first drove into Douma as part of an escorted convoy of journalists. But once a boring general had announced outside a wrecked council house “I have no information” – that most helpful rubbish-dump of Arab officialdom – I just walked away. Several other reporters, mostly Syrian, did the same. Even a group of Russian journalists – all in military attire – drifted off.
It was a short walk to Dr Rahaibani. From the door of his subterranean clinic – “Point 200”, it is called, in the weird geology of this partly-underground city – is a corridor leading downhill where he showed me his lowly hospital and the few beds where a small girl was crying as nurses treated a cut above her eye.
“I was with my family in the basement of my home three hundred metres from here on the night but all the doctors know what happened. There was a lot of shelling [by government forces] and aircraft were always over Douma at night – but on this night, there was wind and huge dust clouds began to come into the basements and cellars where people lived. People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a “White Helmet”, shouted “Gas!”, and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”
Oddly, after chatting to more than 20 people, I couldn’t find one who showed the slightest interest in Douma’s role in bringing about the Western air attacks. Two actually told me they didn’t know about the connection.
But it was a strange world I walked into. Two men, Hussam and Nazir Abu Aishe, said they were unaware how many people had been killed in Douma, although the latter admitted he had a cousin “executed by Jaish el-Islam [the Army of Islam] for allegedly being “close to the regime”. They shrugged when I asked about the 43 people said to have died in the infamous Douma attack.
There were food stalls open and a patrol of Russian military policemen – a now optional extra for every Syrian ceasefire – and no-one had even bothered to storm into the forbidding Islamist prison near Martyr’s Square where victims were supposedly beheaded in the basements. The town’s complement of Syrian interior ministry civilian police – who eerily wear military clothes – are watched over by the Russians who may or may not be watched by the civilians. Again, my earnest questions about gas were met with what seemed genuine perplexity.
How could it be that Douma refugees who had reached camps in Turkey were already describing a gas attack which no-one in Douma today seemed to recall? It did occur to me, once I was walking for more than a mile through these wretched prisoner-groined tunnels, that the citizens of Douma lived so isolated from each other for so long that “news” in our sense of the word simply had no meaning to them. Syria doesn’t cut it as Jeffersonian democracy – as I cynically like to tell my Arab colleagues – and it is indeed a ruthless dictatorship, but that couldn’t cow these people, happy to see foreigners among them, from reacting with a few words of truth. So what were they telling me?
They talked about the Islamists under whom they had lived. They talked about how the armed groups had stolen civilian homes to avoid the Syrian government and Russian bombing. The Jaish el-Islam had burned their offices before they left, but the massive buildings inside the security zones they created had almost all been sandwiched to the ground by air strikes. A Syrian colonel I came across behind one of these buildings asked if I wanted to see how deep the tunnels were. I stopped after well over a mile when he cryptically observed that “this tunnel might reach as far as Britain”. Ah yes, Ms May, I remembered, whose air strikes had been so intimately connected to this place of tunnels and dust. And gas?
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...uma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html
 
Ah, good! The Independent did not fear to publish Fisk's piece :) there is one who deserves to be called journalist. I had been waiting to see what he reported.

I'm more inclined to believe that this was a fake, whether accidental and cynically exploited by the "virtuous west", or actually ordered by the "hawks" here looking for an excuse.
We still have to wait for that fact-finding mission from the OPCW. But it's disgraceful behavior in the Skripal Affair has shown that these OPCW investigations are not beyond picking evidence to back a favoured narrative.

Is is especially damning for the governments responsible for the latest war crime in Syrian (by France, the UK and the US, an unprovoked attack on a sovereign country) if it is proven that the video is indeed real but the people in it did not suffer from any chemical attack. Because governments suck as the french explicitly justified their attack with that video among "social media postings". And presumably they had "experts" capable of distinguishing the effects of toxic gases from other conditions.
Their interpretation of the video, as well as the veracity of the "mouth foaming" pictures, has already been questioned by several people, but it always gets dismisses as conspiracy theory because, hey "government experts" say otherwise. Or rather, government PR claims that government exports say otherwise.

There is another thing: I distinctly felt the impression, during the Skripal affair, that the russian officials commenting on it were at first in disbelief, as in what, they are joking right? And later genuinely indignant to be changed for the attack. And that indignation carried over to, and was increased by, this event in Syria where they seem to have signaled privately that they had had more than enough and anything but some symbolic strike to save face (after Trump hastily tweeted bellicosely) would cause a major war.
It got me scared because it looked like one side was like "we got our public to allow us to bomb yet another country, business as usual" and the other was "we had enough, this will be ww3"!
Diplomats are of course professionals in this game, but there is a difference between the cynical denials (which I remember watching and recognizing as far back as Ali Alatas denying the killings in East Timor...) and the indignant denials like these I noticed now.



 
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If we can't trust OPCW on this matter, we can trust nobody. Hopefully, all OPCW findings on Skripal's case will be made public soon.
But in general it's quite spectacular how western narrative on both cases is falling apart.
 
In the meanwhile, mainstream media is carrying a PR campaign claiming that "medics in Syria are being threated into saying that no attack took place. At the forefront of that PR campaign are french government agents passing themselves off as "NGO".

In the meanwhile this "medical assistance NGO" has diversified and probably gets most of its funding from other governments, as it in its hiring it says: "Preferable Bachelor’s degree in business, English literature or any relevant filed". And guess where the US branch is based? Bethesda, Maryland. Anyone knows where the 3 letter agencies of the US most are at home and keep their pet foreigners to drop in some other country after a regime change?

They don't even bother covering the tracks because what journalists with an audience do actual research instead of parroting "sources"?

Here come the inspectors!

...and there they sit.

If they get delayed 10 more days they'll have taken as long to reach the site of the alleged attack as they did to reach the site of that other attack in dangerous Salisbury, UK! With its ongoing civil war and all...

I'm sure the media and the respectable governments have been even more concerned that evidence was tampered with there.
 
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One is Patrick Cockburn, whom I already mentioned on this thread. He's currently outside Syria and so far has said the use of chlorine was plausible if the reports made to the WHO were confirmed. The other Is Robert Fisk. He has gone into Syria and interviewed personally the people at the site of this "attack" and is confirming reports that no attack happened. We already had interviews with two of the medics on the clinic that was allegedly the source of the reports to the WHO, but those were less reliable. I at least did not know who was doing the reporting. This one is done by a journalist with a known track record. Hopefully some mainstream media will carry a more complete piece by him on this, though I fear The Independent won't dare.
Eh, Fisk seems to be getting a bit batty these days. I have great respect for the guy -his book The Great War for Civilization- had a lot of impact on me, but some of his recent articles are just strange, like the one where he seems to treat Swedish road flares imported into Syria by Volvo before the war as evidence of how Western countries are fueling the civil war. Not Fisk's proudest hour.
 
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