The balancing of puppets

[Skitters]

Do puppets have to be considered summons? Could they be a unit type of their own?

 

[vivictius]

I dont play multiplayer so they really havent been a problems for me yet, but can we make them mute? Seriously, loki alone drives me nuts with all the damn 'here I am' every turn.

 

[Medicine_Man_55]

I think the changes Kael is contemplating for the Summoning trait are good ones. Summoning and Arcane could both use some tweaking, in my opinion.

However, I think there are two related but distinct issues that need to be addressed: 1) balance for the Summoning trait and 2) interaction between the Summoning trait the puppet mechanic.

Kael's changes address issue 1 but not issue 2.

My personal take on puppets mirrors that of Fafnir. I think puppets should not be affected by the Summoner trait at all. They should be a single round duration simulacrum that all Balseraph (arch)mages can create to do their dirty work (and take risks et al.). Remove the puppet casting power penalty and set their base strength to 1 (so they take assassin/marksman hits first).

A possible new strat could be Balseraph archmages with enchanting 3. Shattering a spellstaff could allow a double puppet attack.

Shorter Me: Just make puppets not benefit from the Summon trait. Remove the exponential scaling and they're balanced.

 

[cyther]

I think that Puppets should be permanent, and thus be limited to one per caster. Having the Puppet promotion give the unit a higher chance of failing to cast a spell properly and/or of dealing less damage would be fine too.


I still think that boosting a summon's duration should be an effect of Dimensional sphere promotions instead of a trait.

Would making Summoner grant Twincast be too much?

I don't really see a point of Sundered and Summoner being seperate traits.

I think that it was added to balance Keelyn's puppets among summoning leaders but then added to the building when Kael took out the promotion granting buildings.

 

[Verdian]

Make Balseraph archmages into "Puppet Masters" and make it so only they can summon puppets. This way heroes and liches cannot summon them. It keeps puppets in the game while limiting the amount of them.

 

[Jules.lt]

I'd rather see puppets being permanent summons, and as such allowing only one per caster.
Then the puppet promotion can increase the risk of failure and reduce the damage of spells, as has been suggested.

That would be if the casting ability of puppets is kept.
I think that giving all Balseraph mages a free spell, even so weak as a 2 summon, is already a big bonus.
I'd rather they were simply a small permanent melee unit (limited in number as all permanent summons). In the early game, they're quite useful as it is: they can weaken an enemy so a simple adept can finish him and get xp.
Maybe give them base 2.

Ok, that's a bit extreme, I know...

What about that: casting a spell destroys the puppet. Should do the trick, right?

 

[Verdian]

I'd rather see puppets being permanent summons, and as such allowing only one per caster.

Several people suggested this, and I cannot agree. The problem with this is that there is no system used in vanilla FFH to tie summons to their summoner. So you could have one archmage and 20 adepts, and just have the archmage summon 21 puppets with archmage spells. Even if they died when they used their spell (which is kind of redundent, as the spell staff mechanic is similiar to that), that is still 21 archmage spells in a row.

 

[bonedog]

Of the various ideas being tossed around, I think making puppets unaffected by the summoning trait best accomplishes the desired effect. It still lets you cast Dominate without risk of promotion loss to your archmages. You can still use the puppets as feeble attackers, too. But this way you only get essentially one spell per puppetmaster, rather than the current three when coupled with Summoning. The alternative suggestion, making puppets permanent but limited to one per caster, still means two spells per turn per puppetmaster.

And puppets aren't really 'summoned' anyway, are they?

 

[Micky Onimusha]

I dont play multiplayer so they really havent been a problems for me yet, but can we make them mute? Seriously, loki alone drives me nuts with all the damn 'here I am' every turn.

It's slightly OT, but I'm with this guy. The grunts, thwacks, even Acheron's loud growl are all tolerable, but Loki+Puppets make some annoying noises...thematically fitting but annoying ><

 

[Methuselah]

It's slightly OT, but I'm with this guy. The grunts, thwacks, even Acheron's loud growl are all tolerable, but Loki+Puppets make some annoying noises...thematically fitting but annoying ><

Divided soul noise is even more annoying. I've known some people to turn off their sound effects in MP to avoid listening to it. Is there a way you could have the sounds not play for all the players?

Back on topic:

I like the ideas of puppets being able to fail a spell and not being affected by summoner. Either one would weaken them a fair bit.

 

[Blackmantle]

I actually like the ideas of spell-failure chance for puppets or the things [to_xp]Gekko suggested more than shortening the duration overall for the Sheaim as well.
I like the summoners having the option of using their summoned hordes instead of a regular army. I'm not so sure that would still be the case if the trait were changed.

If there is a problem with a feature, rather fix that feature not the whole mechanics.

Combat 1 for summoned things might sound nice but I'm certain the nerf would clearly be the far bigger part.


On the other hand shortening duration to +1 and adding Twincast to Mages from Civs who have summoner might be ok... But that might actually might make puppets even more powerful...

Still the approach of less duration is not! clearly a bad idea in itself or something with the potential of major damage. I just have my doubts if the outcome will really net positive here or the best option available...

All i can suggest beyond that (if you really aim at changing the trait to fix the issue) is:
Take your time for such a change and wait for more input here.
It effects the civs that have the trait quite profoundly.
Maybe a really good different idea not mentioned here yet might still come up.

Unlike the improvements-issue the trait and its effects are not that widespread and really only puppets from one leader are the real cause of trouble here. So it shouldn't be all as pressing.

Oh and on the slight off-topic of annoying unit-sounds i have to agree that a change to an a bit less annoying set might be very desireable. As well as a maximum volume in case of multiple casts might come in handy. If mages appear en-masse it can be quite a stretch on the ears. And i have allready turned my volume very low. I won't dare to imagine how it might be with an average volume. Let alone a loud one...
(@ everyone having that particular problem destroying their fun with the game: There is a quick-fix allready of using a less annoying sound and replacing the file with the annoying sound-set with the less annoying one by duplicating and changing filenames (credit for that idea goes to BChalet ). Don't know for sure if multiplayer is still possible then though. Maybe someone can try and report here. )

 

[cabbagemeister]

I also don't like shortening the Summoner duration, even in exchange for stronger summons. I feel like the point--really, the flavor--of the Summoner trait is that you can sweep through enemy lands with a horde of disposable units and a very small "real" army to guard your mages. It's a completely different way of fighting a war, and it's really very fun--and any decrease in summons duration would just make Summoner wars more similar to the "normal" way of using arcane units.

(I guess what I'm really saying is: the Sheaim are my favorite--don't nerf them!)

It looks like a lot of people advocate getting rid of the +2 puppet duration. If this change is possible, count me in that camp. The Balseraphs have so many neat mechanics that I don't think anyone would cry for them if puppets were reduced to a means of extending the range of a caster / proving a risk-free way to dominate / acting as assassin fodder.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Ive been scratching my head on this for a while too and Im coming to the same conclusion as you. That summoning should:

1. Decrease from +2 to +1 duration.
2. Increase the strength of the summoned unit (probably in the 10-20% range).

This cleans up a lot of issues, puppets being a major one. And Im interested what other people think. Keep in mind that:

1. I really dont imagine merging Summoner with Arcane, I'd like these to stay two distinct traits.
2. Simple solutions are always better than complex ones.

You fix Keelyn and neuter the Sheaim with this, so I don't like it.

I also really don't like a straight strength bonus. +20% Strength on summons is like saying you have a really bad version of the aggressive trait. (Aggressive already gives this bonus to summons).

A few ideas:

1) 2 turn duration, but summons have a 'extend' promotion they can buy for the normal xp. (Causes them to last one turn longer, can be bought multiple times).

2) 2 turn duration, but summons start with 5 xp.

3) 3 turn duration, summons start with guardsmen, puppets given strength 0 (Casters only, can be killed en mass).

4) 1 turn duration, summoner trait gives summons mobility 2, and extensions promotion gives +1 Duration instead of Mobility.

5) 1 turn duration, summoner trait causes their summoned units to get +1 duration every time they get a kill (ala pit beast, host of einharjer).

6) 1 turn duration, summoner trait causes caster to summon 2 units instead of one (Twin cast causes 3).

7) 2 turn duration, summoner trait gives all arcane units ability to cast 'summon impling' spell, that summons a temporary strength 3 unit. (less duration, but allows level 1 summoners to DO something).

8) 2 turn duration, summoner trait gives all summons the Spirit Guide promotion (or equivalent). Triggers when unit is killed or 'unsummoned'.

 

[Cliftor]

I haven't played enough to experience first hand the overpoweredness of puppets everyone seems to be discussing, but if I understand the situation clearly, I don't understand why the simplest solution has been ignored:

Give Keelyn a trait other than Summoner.

If the overpoweredness is directly linked to Summoner + Puppets, then the easiest solution is to eliminate one piece. As Puppets are an integral part to the Civs flavor and strategy, simply giving her a different trait seems obvious.

*And it certainly wouldn't take anything essential or critical away from her. Summoner is definitely not a requirement to realize the vision and flavor of Keelyn and her Civ.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

(Aggressive already gives this bonus to summons).

Not really, as most summons lack a unitcombat and thus get no promotions from traits.

2) 2 turn duration, but summons start with 5 xp.

As I just said, most summons have no unitcombat so this wouldn't help most of them. Of course, I think that giving all the summons a unitcombat so they could purchase promotions would probably be a good idea.

I don't like the idea of having it be a flat +5 xp. Having it be based on the xp (or maybe level?) of the caster would be much better imho.

 

[orgonebox]

I would like to second the notion of a 1:1 permanent summon puppet-caster correlation. Perhaps make it an ability rather than a spell so twincasting doesn't apply?

 

[Zechnophobe]

I haven't played enough to experience first hand the overpoweredness of puppets everyone seems to be discussing, but if I understand the situation clearly, I don't understand why the simplest solution has been ignored:

Give Keelyn a trait other than Summoner.

If the overpoweredness is directly linked to Summoner + Puppets, then the easiest solution is to eliminate one piece. As Puppets are an integral part to the Civs flavor and strategy, simply giving her a different trait seems obvious.

*And it certainly wouldn't take anything essential or critical away from her. Summoner is definitely not a requirement to realize the vision and flavor of Keelyn and her Civ.

Y'know, I barely even TOUCH the lore on the game, since it's not my thing. And even *I* think you are completely wrong. Keelyn is very very obviously a summoner.

 

[Iceciro]

I still think the most simple solution is to surgically handle the Summoner + Puppets problem by saying "Summoner doesn't affect puppets." This:

1) achieves the simplest possible change affecting nothing but the problem that exists, nerfing only the imbalanced part.

2) Makes the players make a tactical decision regarding whether to use puppets for safer casting/extra range/risk-free Dominate or use their actual casters to get sticking-around summons.

More tactical options and decisions in a Turn Based Strategy is not a bad thing - nerfing completely unrelated leaders because Keelyn's summoned puppets are nuts is.

 

[WarKirby]

Divided soul noise is even more annoying.

noooo

The divided soul sounds are awesome.

IF you're lookingfor bad sound efffects.... why is the new resource pop sound used for a creature coming out of a planar gate?

 

[smusebaer]

I thought of permanent puppets too, but if you got 20 Adepts and 1 Achmage, the archmage can cast 20 permanent puppets.
My idea:
Make the puppets national units. No one needs more than 4 puppets. And i Think, they should be permanent like Magister said... for the flair...


For summoning: I like the idea of longer lasting summons. But it´s restrikted to 3 leaders. My idea is a unit promotion. Summoner 1 + 2. The trait summoner gives a str. boost to summons (pimp up my skeletons) or a Exp bonus (since summons can raise in level...) and summoner 1 (+ 1 duration of summon). Summoner 1 is free for every one, and for summoner 2 the trait summoner is needed.