The balancing of puppets

[sylvanllewelyn]

nerfing completely unrelated leaders because Keelyn's summoned puppets are nuts

Exactly. I could not say it any better myself.

The problem is not summoning, it's puppets. It's like saying "nerf the aggressive trait because Charadon and beastman makes early rushes too powerful". It makes no logical sense. You change beastman or you change the leader, you don't change the entire trait.

I suggest not touching the ability of the puppets, but make it so that if a puppet is killed, then all the puppets plus the original caster dies as well. To create an illusion that casts spells means you have to split your mind in two places. If someone breaks half your mind, then naturally your whole mind is broken and you just die.

 

[mahazel]

- reduce summon duration from 3 to 2 is good, but then summons nead some bonus (start with strong promotion? or something), or summoner trait should give +20% (or greater) bonus agains summons in cities? (something like weaker version of old wall of light building)
- maybe "Create Puppet" could be a spell given by promotion, after cast spell should be removed and you need choose the promotion again (something like domination). Puppet should be permanent summon.
- for create a puppet caster should get some experience (+4?)
- only puppeters and archmages could choose this promotion, puppeters start with it.

 

[Imuratep]

Actually flavorwise it would make a lot of sense if Puppets had no duration. You are not summoning them from the ether but you are animating a puppet you build with your magic and it only works if you let the magic constantly through your puppet.

I got an idea how to solve the problem that you could summon 15 archmage puppets if you only have 1 archmage but 14 adepts: If a spellcaster casts Animate Puppet he loses the ability to cast the spell (or better he loses the puppeter promotion that allows him to cast Animate Puppet). He can regain it from a puppet that has the same Channeling promotion as he has. So a puppet with Channeling III could give him the promotion whilst a puppet with Channeling I could not.

The problem of the 'permanent summon' solution is that puppets don't do much except some little tricks. That's why I think we should think of some ways to make puppets more interesting: Every puppet starts with a random strength and a random defense (separately calculated) that depends on the channeling level of his caster. So a channeling I puppet had a strength between 0-4 and a defense of 0-4 (e.g. 0/4, 3/2 4/1 etc.), a channeling II puppet both between 0-7 and an archmage puppet both between 0-10. In addition every puppet automatically starts with Mutated because of the chaos mana flowing through it and has a certain chance to start with crazed or enraged. This way also Loki becomes more interesting beyond stealing enemy cities as he starts with Channeling II and therefor can create very good puppets very early.

As I know that with my proposed solution you could just cast the puppet and give the promotion back to the caster until you're content with the promotions I think both spells should resolve after a certain amount of time.

 

[Jules.lt]

except that a mage would never be able to get the promotion again if his puppet died.
What about limiting the number of puppets by channeling group?
So you could only have as many puppets with channeling III as you have archmages, etc.

 

[Imuratep]

He could, but only if another mage sacrifices his puppet for him. If the first mage had 88 xp and the second 10 xp it can be worthwhile. Also puppets wouldn't be just throw-aways, but something you look very closely. Only the adepts' puppets should be assassin fodder but not the mighty puppets the mages and archmages create.
Perhaps Loki could have the ability to destroy all puppets. In exchange all units in the stack get their puppeter ability back.
Another possibility would be that the puppet spawned pieces similar to Barnaxus that only last three turns unlike Barnaxus' pieces that last forever and can't be destroyed.

 

[Jules.lt]

Hum... that could work.
- Each Balseraph mage (except world units) starts with a puppet promotion (meaning they carry it around).
- When they cast their puppet spell, it creates a puppet and loses the puppet promotion, meaning that he has no other puppet available.
- When a puppet dies, it leaves a "dislocated puppet" item, which a Balseraph mage can pick up to gain the puppet promotion again.
- There are 3 types of puppets (and dislocated ones), one for each Channeling level, and a higher tier caster won't pick up an inferior puppet. "Crude puppet", "Puppet" and "Elaborate puppet", for example, with equal to their channeling level.
- As any item, dislocated puppets last as long as they're not purposefully deleted. (Maybe allow ennemies to delete them by pillaging the tile?)

Meaning that if your casters die without their puppet, those might live on and another caster of the appropriate level can pick them up and make them live again, but you won't get too many (especially the higher tier ones). That might actually make some puppets precious units

I'd still like the puppets to have higher cating failure rates and lower spell damage.

It should be indicated in the hints that you should be very careful to have the puppet on you when upgrading to mage or archmage, because otherwise your old puppet will become worthless to you. Or do we allow Tier 1 puppets to live on and give the new puppet to the caster on upgrades?

The higher tier casters could be able to pick up one puppet of each Tier, but lower tier puppets will only have the mage's spells of the appropriate Tier, but that may be too many puppets.

 

[Elm]

My idea:
Make the puppets national units. No one needs more than 4 puppets. And i Think, they should be permanent like Magister said... for the flair...

Permanent puppets is not good. That gives summoners access to 4 more arch-mages.

As I see it, puppets are little animated wooden figures. Why should they be as good at magic is their summoner? (I am not up on the lore, so maybe they should be).

I think the best solution, if possible, is to not allow puppets 3 turn summons. Just 1. If there was a way to remove the +2 turn from puppet's summons, that would be good. I like 3 turn puppets, because that gives puppets time to move where you want them to caste a spell.

Other alternative: All puppet summons have the "weak" promotion. Or maybe create a new promotions "frail" or something that is -50% strength.

Another alternative: After casting, a puppet "falls to dust". That is, casting kills the puppet.

Note: I would not change the summoner trait, because that affects the Sheaim. I think changing the way puppets work is the better alternative. So:

Something like one of the following:

1) Puppet Summons do not have +2 duration
2) Puppets are destroyed after casting
3) Puppet Summons have a "free" promotion, similar to weak, but more like 50%. Make them "stunted" or "frail", and maybe have the summons look different. Big heads, or smaller size.

 

[Imuratep]

Permanent puppets is not good. That gives summoners access to 4 more arch-mages. .

Before you essentially had access to 8 more archmages (3 summoned creatures per archmage -4 because the Archmage itself can't cast himself) with twincast 16 more archmages so this would be an improvement. Furthermore if you give puppets a spell failure chance (I propose 50%), the additional archmage count reduces again.
Other civilizations like the Amurites also have additional Archmage counts simply by being able to teach Druids every single spell sphere with Govannon. The Balseraph also are also centered on magic, perhaps not as much as the Amurites, but they are not far from them.

 

[someone67]

What about making Loki an archmage hero and the only one being able to summon puppets, using the sound of the arcane-unit-puppet-summon? Also the hero archmage Loki shouldn't have the hero promotion to deny him twincast.

With this change you can only have three puppets at a time, wich would reduce the power of puppet summons drasticly. Also it would solve the "Here I am!" issue.

 

[smusebaer]

Or give the puppets to the harlekins (and Loki). So puppets just can cast taunt...

 

[Elm]

What about making Loki an archmage hero and the only one being able to summon puppets, using the sound of the arcane-unit-puppet-summon? Also the hero archmage Loki shouldn't have the hero promotion to deny him twincast.

With this change you can only have three puppets at a time, wich would reduce the power of puppet summons drasticly. Also it would solve the "Here I am!" issue.

That wouldn't work for Perpentach. Remember, one of the key reasons for Balsaraphs having puppets was to be able to circumvent loosing Mind III when Domination fails.

The question is, how do you change the summoner/puppet combo without messing up Perpentach (puppet) or the Shaeim (Summoner)

 

[Thunder_Gr]

That wouldn't work for Perpentach. Remember, one of the key reasons for Balsaraphs having puppets was to be able to circumvent loosing Mind III when Domination fails.

The question is, how do you change the summoner/puppet combo without messing up Perpentach (puppet) or the Shaeim (Summoner)

I am no balsheraph expert...Far from it if you consider I haven't played as them yet...
However your question did bring a solution in my mind and I thought it wouldn't do any harm to say it.

The most simple solution seems to be to give a trait to Keelyn that reduces the summoning duration by 1 and add 20% to summons strength

 

[Keeper_GFA]

If Puppets were made national units, would that prevent summoning more than 4 of them? (since summoning a unit is a different mechanic than building a unit)

 

[Earthling]

First, my disclaimer is that I have not actually played a full game as the Balseraphs yet - and I'd never seen an AI meaningfully use a puppet (I thought it was even limited to Loki or maybe one or two others, not all their casters). That said, what I've read in this thread seems obviously wrong - summoning 30 or so elementals a turn is broken and exploitive (and this is something very, very imbalanced for the human too).

However, I do see how it is reasonable to allow puppets to augment archmages somewhat - as mentioned civs like the Amurites and abilities like spellstaff/lichdom do this too. I could see puppets being on the same level of helping spellcasters because I don't recall the Balseraphs being that strong in melee.

The place where it seems I really disagree with a lot of you, though, is that I do think summoner is already overpowered. I would have no problem reducing summoner to +2 turns, flat out with no other bonuses (maybe, though, you could add in a wonder, someone along the evil tech path, that gives another +1). My experience with the Sheiam is that, like many have said, they can get really strong with ridiculous ease. The Sheiam already have planar gates and their AC bonus, versatile units like pyre zombies - 3 turns of summons is overkill. And then I don't think anyone cares if Hyborem loses a turn of summoner.

So I think what would work out best to resolve this then is:
1) Changing Summoner to 2 turns
2) Only Loki/Balseraph Archmages (Puppeteers) can summon puppets (no Hemah or other heroes). Puppets can't summon other puppets. Puppets do last 2 turns, but are not permanent.

So then, 2 puppets per archmage is powerful, but not really unbalancing, and fits with the theme of the civ. If lichs were unable to summon puppets I couldn't see this being unbalanced at all, since you would only have puppets with your archmages then. Puppets as shields for the casters (and perhaps gaining a few extra spells a turn) are ok - the current system does seem broken.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Okay, here's a thought to fix puppet mechanic:

Puppets last 3 turns base (5 for keelyn).
Casting the puppet immobolizes the caster for 3 turns. (After cast).

We don't touch the summoning mechanic.

Thusly you can make puppets to go do your bidding in far off locations 'safely', but you don't get to mass them in the same way you can other summons. At best, Keelyn can have 2 puppets per caster.

 

[hbar]

Why not make summoning a puppet cost money? They aren't exactly being pulled from a dimensional vault like other summons - they are made of wood and cloth, and those things cost money. That way you can have your army of 12 archmages, but not for very long.

Of course, the AI would need to learn how not to use puppets, but that would be okay because then I could turn the sound back up. ("Here I am! Here I am! Here I am!")

 

[Blakmane]

Another alternative: After casting, a puppet "falls to dust". That is, casting kills the puppet.

This is an elegant solution, and very simple (a line or two of code?). It totally removes the puppet balance issue without messing around with other aspects of game balance. It is also more intuitive than not allowing puppets to last the whole 3 turns, as if that is imposed there will be constant bug-thread messages about 'how come my summoner trait doesn't affect my puppets!'

 

[bonedog]

This is an elegant solution, and very simple (a line or two of code?). It totally removes the puppet balance issue without messing around with other aspects of game balance. It is also more intuitive than not allowing puppets to last the whole 3 turns, as if that is imposed there will be constant bug-thread messages about 'how come my summoner trait doesn't affect my puppets!'

It doesn't completely remove the puppet balance issue, in my mind, since a Keelyn player can still amass a bunch of puppets and cast a flurry of spells all at once. Sure, after that, they would lose all the puppets, but if a besieged city falls during the first turn of an assault, does that really matter?

To me, the problem is that puppets can cast spells, so any effect which makes puppets permanent or last longer than one turn means that someone playing Keelyn (and only Keelyn) effectively gets extra spellcasters. That's why I agree with others who say that Summoning shouldn't apply to puppets. It's really the only solution proposed so far which doesn't give Keelyn any extra spells per turn.

 

[Elm]

Another alternative: After casting, a puppet "falls to dust". That is, casting kills the puppet.

It doesn't completely remove the puppet balance issue, in my mind, since a Keelyn player can still amass a bunch of puppets and cast a flurry of spells all at once. Sure, after that, they would lose all the puppets, but if a besieged city falls during the first turn of an assault, does that really matter?

To me, the problem is that puppets can cast spells, so any effect which makes puppets permanent or last longer than one turn means that someone playing Keelyn (and only Keelyn) effectively gets extra spellcasters. That's why I agree with others who say that Summoning shouldn't apply to puppets. It's really the only solution proposed so far which doesn't give Keelyn any extra spells per turn.

Not really. If one mage summons 3 puppets over 3 turns, then the three puppets cast a summon, and are then deleted, you have 3 summons. The same amount you would have if the original mage did the summoning over three turns. The only difference, is that all 3 summons would have +2 duration, instead of +2, +1 and +0.

So, that wouldn't be overpowered. Or am I counting things incorrectly?

 

[cabbagemeister]

No, you're correct, except that the mage can then make more puppets while the original puppets' summons are still alive. By my count, with careful planning you could have up to 5 summons per caster on a given turn with this puppet idea, instead of 3.


EDIT -- in this fashion:
Turns 1-3 -- Mage summons puppets
Turn 3 -- all 3 puppets summon Spectres (will die in 3 turns)
Turns 4 and 5 -- Mage summons puppets
Turn 5 -- the two puppets summon Spectres; the first 3 Spectres still have 1 turn until they die. All 5 Spectres attack.


This makes me like the idea more and more. 5 summons per mage is an excellent compromise between 3 (normal summoner) and 9 (current Keelyn ridiculousness).