The benefits of avoiding bronze working

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That's not the right question, is it? It's not that you bulb Feu vs getting BW. You bulb Feu instead of bulbing something else. I don't get why Feu would be so much more useful. I would save the GS for Philo or Edu. (or Machinery, Eng, Astro - all sound more useful in any common game)

Feudalism bulb may be more use than early Bronze Working was the point I was making. Whether bulbing another Technology is more useful depends on the situation. Certainly Philosophy is a valid alternative to Feudalism, but it doesn't require delayed BW. All of your other suggested (GS) bulbs require BW before they can be performed. The whole point in delaying BW is to open alternative bulbing paths.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Have you ever employed this strategy, Sun Tzu Wu, or found it to be useful?
 
Have you ever employed this strategy, Sun Tzu Wu, or found it to be useful?

This strategy has very little value to a HoF player; a HoF player will not choose to play a low food and low forest start; a HoF player picks a map that in his (her) estimation has the greatest potential for beating the #1 HoF game in the chosen victory condition.

As a HoF player, I have no vested interest in proving or disproving this strategy. However, it is my opinion that OP has a valid strategy; thus, I take the time to counter posts containing player opinions presented as fact without proof.

The question that remains, pro or con, is conclusive proof. Where is the proof?

What I can't understand is how any experienced player can say the strategy never works when the OP showed two examples of games that did work for him. These games are counter examples (in the sense of mathematical proofs) to the thesis that the strategy is a 100% failure. Since there are at least two games where the strategy works, the applicability of the strategy must be grester than 0.00%. For this reason, I defend the strategy against those who say it has absolutely no value.

Indeed, the OP would never have expended so much of his energy explaining and defending his strategy versus often quite hostile criticism, if the strategy did not work for him. He wanted to share his strategy, but aside from a few open minded players, the vast majority of players never gave him a chance.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Open-mindedness should not be conflated with gullibility, since rationality acts as a filter. Numerous objections were raised to the utility of this strategy, which were poorly answered by the OP.

A strategy should have a broad degree of applicability. It is not enough to play an arid, isolated start, with huts and events, and then rely upon the RNG to carry the player to a cultural victory. To argue that this constitutes a proof dilutes the value of the thesis.

The prevarication of the original post's conclusion is revealing:

Bronze Working with its chopping, whipping, and (possible) Axemen is often times great early, just not all the time. If you want to get to any mid-tier technology that doesn't require it as soon as possible, you might be best off skipping it for a short or long while, depending on the specific situation. This can be true if you are going a peaceful science route (Constitution), a peaceful cultural route (Liberalism and Nationalism), or even a warmonger route (Military Tradition and/or Gunpowder). The overall point is that it is sometimes best to layoff the Bronze Working for awhile. Not only can it be good strategy, but your populations and forests will also be appreciative! Good times.
This is the strategic equivalent of vanilla ice cream, and the specifics contained within the body of the post were generally refuted or problematized (there are quicker ways to Construction, Feudalism, etc., whips are needed on the overwhelming majority of maps, chops are needed on a good number as well, avoiding BW cuts off a good number of Medieval techs, and so on).

I don't doubt that there are situations in which it is advantageous to avoid Bronze Working, but these are exceptions as opposed to rules. Inordinate space and attention have been devoted to this thread, simply because there is a tiny proportion of maps (far less than BQ advocated) in which it garners success. A post containing instructions on how to Elepult, or bulb Astronomy, win a Culture Victory through Espionage, or run an economy based upon building Wealth, would have considerably more value. This isn't close-mindedness, but rational discrimination.
 
And I thought I was smart in skipping Bronze Working?

I very often do that in order to research Agriculture... :D

Naturally, I cannot say that getting far into the tech-tree avoiding Bronze Working is bad play (I have no proof of that). But in my experience I have never played a map where it would benefit me to avoid it for much longer than after Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, The Wheel and Pottery... (and Mining of course :))

Maybe I'll try it once... just to see how it plays out...



Yours Sincerely


Kjotleik of Norway :)
 
One could debate how general a strategy should be in order to merit the effort of writing a guide. It seems silly to discuss a strategy that you know does not work in most cases (you will forget this discussion before you might need it).
Yet it was done. The effort was made and an article was posted for potential improvement suggestions.
Inordinate space and attention have been devoted to this thread. I guess it was really necessary to point out how ridiculously flawed the strategy is in most cases.

The title of the thread however really is singularly silly. I think if it would be renamed "When BW can be delayed" the reaction to this article would have been much more balanced.
Edit: The tone of the paragraph Doshin quotes is simply British.
 
The requirement that a strategy have 100% applicabilty or even a majority of applicabilty is nonsense. There are strategies that apply only to a specific Civilization or Leader. There are strategies that are valid only for a breif period within a specific era. A strategy designer is free to design the parameters of his strategy anyway he sees fit. There is no requirement that every experienced player must "bless" a strategy for it to be valuable to at least one player.

In the final analysis, there is no conclusive proof for or against the strategy. There may be more opinions against it, but evaluating strategies is not a popularity contest comprised of primarily inexperienced players who place their faith in dogma or improperly designed mathematical analysis.

Witty words can not change the truth. Sometimes the truth is we really don't know.

The OP is no longer here to defend his strategy. Give it a rest. In an adversial system of deciding things there are proponents on each side. When only one side is adequately represented, as in the analogy of unbalanced scales, there can be no justice.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Arguments that are little more than hand waving do not constitute proof.

I have read this thread from the beginning and never seen anything that conclusively proves either a pro or con view of this strategy.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I'm a very experienced player and I don't blindly follow "dogma". I've done it all. I've tried every strategy on the forum and I know what works and what doesn't. There are many here who are more experienced than I. Anyway, this thread is no longer interesting for me, take care all.
 
@StW

I am really surprised with the line of your argumentation and I think I said already in the past....

If I remember right the strategy of avoiding BW one of it's stronger points has that you can bulb Liberalism with some GP (don't remember now which one), for that purpose OP provided a savegame which eventually he won cultural victory and bulbed liberalism.

Then another player (I think it was shakabrade?) came, played the same start up to liberalism with rather normal play (aka noBW avoidance until Lib) and got Liberalism SOONER then OP, proving that to get good date of Lib in that map is better with BW.

then you just change argumentation that the game wasn't won with getting Lib and doesn't mean anything....

so what gives? If the strategy is about avoiding BW to get "sooner" Lib, then showing stronger play with BW to get Lib even sooner on the SAME! map (btw MAP THAT WAS CHOSEN BY OP) totally kills the claims OP gives...

and yet we are here still after like 2 years of this wrong strategy article discussing it? please...

I still wait to see at least 1 map where avoiding BW for first ~110 turns (that is the timing of those GP's gotten from wonders btw) is better play for any criterium set by OP (getting Feud, Lib whatever).
 
The dogma I'm refering to is "always research Bronze Working early, no matter what". I won't go into who did or did not essentially say this. In any case, following dogma, no matter what the specifics of it are, suggests a lack of critical thinking.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
The problem with using the Liberalism date as proof is one does not necessarily win earlier by getting to Liberalism first. The Liberalism date can be delayed to get a better free Technology. What is more important is what has been sacrifised to get the Liberalism date. In other words, the Liberalism date is not as important as the win date. Only the win date for a specific victory condition counts. Is this point really that unclear?

The games you refer to were played to different victory conditions (traditional cultural victory and domination victory) and are thus incomparible (inconclusive).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
The problem with using the Liberalism date as proof is one does not necessarily win earlier by getting to Liberalism first. The Liberalism date can be delayed to get a better free Technology. What is more important is what has been sacrifised to get the Liberalism date. In other words, the Liberalism date is not as important as the win date. Only the win date for a specific victory condition counts. Is this point really that unclear?

The games you refer to were played to different victory conditions (traditional cultural victory and domination victory) and are thus incomparible (inconclusive).

Sun Tzu Wu

that's the problem right here...

if someone claims to avoid BW to get Liberalism through bulb "sooner" then the time of Liberalism is the main metric I use otherwise his point doesn't make sense.

Eventual victory condition and what not, don't interest me at all... since they are irrelevant in the discussion if bulbing Liberalism avoiding BW is better then to get to Liberalism in more traditional way (and there are ways how to bulb Lib even while teching BW, it's not like avoiding BW is some super secret strategy how to bulb Lib)...

Liberalism is still considered a race for good reasons, so the timing of Liberalism is definitely metric on itself.
I certainly understand that in a lot of games the Liberalism isn't true race due to a lot of reasons.

If someone new would read this article he can be misguided to use suboptimal approach to getting Liberalism "sooner" and inevitably losing the race.
 
Honestly. :rolleyes: There's hardly a conspiracy of close-minded Civ players so obsessed with tradition as to overlook useful strategies, and in the... what, 50 pages of text generated by this approach over the course of a year, two individuals have emerged to defend it, the OP and STW (who is yet to use it).

My own thoughts, IIRC, were posted here and here. I don't really think this is unthinking dogma. :dunno:

Sometimes strategies are simply bad or flawed, although the variety inherent to Civ allows that they will occasionally prove to be of use. Avoiding Bronze Working probably falls into the same category as bulbing Guilds or Gunpowder on Deity. 99% of the time it will do more harm than good, although rare counter-examples can be found where the approach would be beneficial.

Anyway, I'm also done pointing out the obvious here. I'm quite open to a demonstration of the strategy's superiority, but am still yet to see this in theory or in practice. Until then...
 
Ah, speak of the devil. :lol:

@BQ

Spoiler :
My criticism is not meant to be personal. If you think anything is disrespectful, please let me know and I will reword it.
 
First, thanks to Ondskan for a very generous comment.

Second, thanks Sun Tzu Wu for elegantly and accurately defending the strategy in my absence. He is a better player than I.

Third, I have always appreciated skeptical comments that have been cordial and well-articulated, for instance those made by Duckweed and Jack Funk, both of whom are also better players than I.

Fourth, I stopped playing Civ 4 (aside from weekly multiplayer sessions) for the better part of a year in order to finish my dissertation, which was submitted and accepted in the spring (like previously, some will hate on me for even mentioning that, but I don't care at this point). Does being an academic make me a better player? Absolutely not. What it does, however, is make me have relatively high standards about how a discussion and debate should unfold (as do some others on here). A discussion should be (and indeed, I am used to it being) thoughtful and respectful.

Fifth, the nastiness and denseness of many of the negative posts got old a long time ago. They are still old. If there's not a productive, accurate, respectful conversation taking place, then it's hard to build up the motivation to continue my side of it.

Sixth, the detractors have had 10 months to beat a Deity map I beat twice as an Immortal-level player not even as good as I am today. They have not done so. That says something. (Note, I dealt with the bad events and turned down positive events to avoid the above, false accusation that I relied on RNG luck). No matter what the map would have been, some people would say, "Oh, it's just that one map." Absolute nonsense. That map has certain conditions that are replicable on other maps.

Seventh, I have started playing a bit again and have stepped up to Deity regularly. The AI does move fast, but I am enjoying the challenge. I have, however, started playing with a custom setting that has made me reluctant to post on these forums as people will merely attack the custom setting. Basically, I read that for Gods and Kings religions are now limited to half the amount of civilizations. I therefore decided that I would try a 14-civ, low sea level map, and had an absolute blast playing it (fractal, random leader usually, random terrain, huts and events on). Much more fun. The game feels more balanced too (from my perspective). So I have just been playing that custom setting lately. I understand that it changes the strategy and dynamics in some ways. I don't need to be lectured on it. Yes, I have continued to use the bulbs in this article from time to time, and yes, I have found them to be beneficial. But the fact that I have been playing on 14-civ, low-sea level maps has led me to just keep quiet and not share. I've been happy playing and developing my approach in silence.

Eighth, I have had time to experiment with and think about each of the main delayed-BW bulbs that are mentioned in the article. I can now therefore answer Jack Funk's fine question about conditions with a little more specificity. For the Liberalism bulb, the entire beeline (Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, Writing, Code of Laws, Philosophy, Mathematics, Civil Service, Paper, Education, and Liberalism) is full of great techs, but they are all peaceful in nature. If you do a hardcore beeline like that, you will most likely have a pacifist warrior army. This bulb strategy is therefore best utilized in peaceful settings. Indeed, isolation might be optimal for it. No loss on early trading (the other bulbs are first bulbs). No threat of an attack. It is also ideal when Liberalism itself is a goal, not just the free tech that getting there first provides. So that means that this bulb is ideal for isolated cultural wins via Free Speech (as I demonstrated with map #2) and isolated diplomatic wins via late entry into diplomacy with Free Religion and a better sense of who your opponent on the ballot will be before you start lining up friends and enemies (you'll want to trade Liberalism and your free tech and whatever else you can for the Astronomy, Printing Press, Scientific Method route up towards the UN. Note that the first civ you meet is guaranteed to have up to Optics already, and likely Astronomy soon).

Ninth, the delayed-BW GM Civil Service bulb is ideal for heavy fur starts. This bulb strategy requires you to get to Code of Laws (and then Civil Service) via Currency, not Priesthood (those who try to dismiss the strategy by showing that they can get to Civil Service earlier do so via the cheaper Priesthood route). A beeline towards Civil Service via Currency and Code of Laws makes sense with a fur heavy start. Lots of commerce in capital immediately from fur camps, no desire to chop the forests of fur camps (in fact you want the forests to spread), markets will provide extra happiness and can be a multiplier on that commerce, Code of Laws will allow you to run Caste System and generate that merchant quickly without a wonder, and Civil Service will allow you to multiply that capital commerce even more. Your defense, if you need it, is archers, as you will be going through hunting anyway. Best starting tech: the much maligned Hunting.

Tenth, the delayed-BW GE Feudalism bulb is ideal for heavy winery starts with stone. You tech up to monarchy, grabbing a religion if you can (Judaism the most likely on higher levels, which requires masonry anyway) and you build the Pyramids and generate that GE. Bulb Feudalism and you'll easily be the first to it. You'll have Serfdom at a time when there are a lot of terrain improvements to make, no happy cap issues forcing you to want to slave off your citizens instead, a legal civic adding promotions to your new and emerging (and guaranteed) defensive army of Longbows, monopoly on a very valuable and tradable tech, and two tech directions to head (Guilds or Civil Service). Best starting tech: the much maligned Mysticism.

Eleventh, my approach to Bronze Working now is this. I will almost never dead end self-tech it. In other words, if I tech it, I am going Bronze Working to Metal Casting to Machinery, or Bronze Working to Iron to Compass. On the majority of my games, I will trade for it as it is always readily available early on. On a very decent fraction of my games, I will purposefully not trade for it in order to utilize one of the above bulb strategies.

Twelfth, I will add some of these thoughts to the article.

Thirteenth, I am once again open to feedback and debate, both positive and negative. I am not, however, really interested in engaging with individuals who are rude, dismissive, or intentionally mischaracterize the strategy. If you want to do any of those three things, then how about this: go beat map #2 anyway, anyhow you can, post your victory screenshot, and then come be rude and dismissive. Good times.
 
Your big problem is that you never consider losses, for example CS bulb for fur starts.
Where will you ever take your expansion from, if you work low hammer/food yield tiles (furs), have no chops or whips, build markets like you mention or run merchants early..

I should not comment because it seems you are not willing to understand anyways, but this was so very obvious that i thought it's worth another try for you to see the light, maybe.
 
Your big problem is that you never consider losses, for example CS bulb for fur starts.
Where will you ever take your expansion from, if you work low hammer/food yield tiles (furs), have no chops or whips, build markets like you mention or run merchants early..

You improve and work your high-yield food tiles first, obviously, and then build a settler via those, most likely before improving and working the fur. Dead end teching Bronze Working (120) and possibly Mining (+50=170) to whip out a settler (100) without a granary does not sound like a good play to me.

I should not comment because it seems you are not willing to understand anyways, but this was so very obvious that i thought it's worth another try for you to see the light, maybe.

Go beat map #2, and then come help me "see the light."
 
Why don't you go beat it first, culture in Isolation does not count.

First, that is your opinion. Second, when did a win ever not count? There are dozens of different ways to win, but I'm not aware of any that do not count.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
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