The benefits of avoiding bronze working

[shakabrade]

Do you really think anyone cares how difficult you think each victory condition is? Does pursuing victory conditions you consider harder make one a more skilled player? Does pursuing victory conditions you consider easier make one a less skilled player? Exactly what kind of point are you trying to make? Perhaps you are simply reminiscing about games you have played. It's hard to tell.

I personally consider Cultural Victory to be the most satisfying, especially when trying to do it peacefully (No DoW versus AI and no attempts at enticing the AI to declare on you). War is grossly over-rated in this forum in my opinion. All Victory Conditions are equally valid; some will be easier than others in a given situation. Indeed, one should pursue the Victory Condition that more closely matches one's situation and is easiest to win.

Perhaps we should always win by culture, since that is the easiest victory condition in your opinion?

Sun Tzu Wu

Perhaps we should always win by culture, since that is the easiest victory condition in your opinion?

Given the scientific approach to common talk you diligently exercise, how on earth how you come to the totally opposite conclusion?

Indeed, one should pursue the Victory Condition that more closely matches one's situation and is easiest to win.

You said that, not me. I am on masochistic side of the forum, if there is such.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Indeed, all that is IMO.

Well, even you know that the game ends and the word "Victory" comes up on the screen. If you want to be so loose with your words, that is up to you.

I am one of those people who are never wrong. Just like you.

Except when I admit I'm wrong (see post #9), of course.

When a rookie comes to the forums with revolutionary ideas, it is on rookie to work extra hard to prove that his hypothesis is right not the other way around.

No problem.

If you don't believe in such a system you are free to defend your Ph.D thesis you are proud of in front of me and my baby girl.

Congratulations on your daughter.

I still remember you telling that you are very good at whipping in some post million years ago. What if, simply, you are not?

Well, I guess it depends what your definition of "good" is. I would consider anyone that can employ slavery when appropriate to win on Immortal or Deity (myself included) to be "good." You might have a much more exclusionary definition of the word.

 

[Doshin]

I was wrong once, back in the winter of '95.

 

[Raphs_Sai]

The more I think about it, I find that the Feudalism bulb to be impractical. Mainly cuz you have to build either the Pyramids or Hanging Gardens to get GE points. Then you need to wait 50 turns to pop a GE.

Now let's say you build the Pyramids. This unlocks Representation. Going for Feudalism requires you to get the religious techs, get Monarchy (which is now useless), then go to Feudalism for the Serfdom civic which isn't really all that great anyways. It just seems inefficient to go down that tech path after you invested so much effort into building the Pyramids.

Avoiding Bronze also likely means that you are isolated, so techs like Currency, Code of Laws, and Civil Service are much more valuable than Feudalism.

You could argue it would quicken the path to Guilds so you can unlock Knights, but the GE can also bulb Machinery, and I doubt you'll be getting 2 GE's by that time, unless if you have a Forge.

 

[Fippy]

No need for stepping down, Shakabrade..there's 2 people on this whole forum only who are not agreeing with you on this one

You will probably not believe me, but i "won" this map.
There's 2 reasons why i don't post a save or screens...

a) because i realize it was pure luck, in Deity Isolation you have no control and view over what AIs do, and i could have lost for example the Pyramids that i used, or Taoism with rather late Philo.

b) i edited out a great artist which i got at like 2% chance for great scientist (90%), i have no nerves for this bug anymore as it happens every second game for me when it should happen maybe each 20nd.

So it's not a win as per forum definition, i only played for myself from this point on.
But i know (as if we did not all know that before..) that "delayed BW" has nothing to do with winning such maps.

 

[shakabrade]

No need for stepping down, Shakabrade..there's 2 people on this whole forum only who are not agreeing with you on this one

You will probably not believe me, but i "won" this map.
There's 2 reasons why i don't post a save or screens...

a) because i realize it was pure luck, in Deity Isolation you have no control and view over what AIs do, and i could have lost for example the Pyramids that i used, or Taoism with rather late Philo.

b) i edited out a great artist which i got at like 2% chance for great scientist (90%), i have no nerves for this bug anymore as it happens every second game for me when it should happen maybe each 20nd.

So it's not a win as per forum definition, i only played for myself from this point on.
But i know (as if we did not all know that before..) that "delayed BW" has nothing to do with winning such maps.

Why wouldn't I believe you. It is not that deity isolation is not winnable. Problem is that people don't even try. I won multiple deity isolations (with brutal amount of reloads though ). And I didn't count some GLH powered archipelago isolations since that is too good lof a position. AI is less competent on land scarce maps xause it can't spam cottages and also don't have hammers for building research. They keep pumping incredible numbers of galleys, triremes and caravels, which would be more dangerous units in landish starts. Regarding deity isolations being pure luck, I would have to disagree. I intend to run few deity iso games to try popularizing the format. Problem is that someone should provide maps. You cant know without peeking in WB and that takes all the fun away. Maybe I could blur my vision somehow.

I have played a semi-isolation game with Genghis Khan as a neighbour and awful start and that is a game you are more likely to lose. Fortunately, he got a religion and we became friends soon and rest was piece of cake. No religion would have lead to keshik party in my land no matter what.

To stay on topic: avoiding BW on that map would be of no use. Thanks to whipping I was able to react as soon as I found out about perfect land blocking site.

And congrats on the win.

Edit: It is true that you don't have influnce on other continents but you are safe at least. AIs dont win before 1750 so you should be able to get in winning position. It is inevitably much later win

 

[UnforcedError]

I was wrong once, back in the winter of '95.

No way

@Ralphs_Sai: good point! Going all the hussle of building the Mids (without chopping / whipping into it) just to bulb Feudalism just isn't worth it. An early Feudalism is probably something you'd want (to Oracle perhaps) if you want to start vassaling in the BCs. But if you can't prepare an army bacause you can't rush and don't know where metal is there is not much point in doing it.

You could argue it would quicken the path to Guilds so you can unlock Knights, but the GE can also bulb Machinery, and I doubt you'll be getting 2 GE's by that time, unless if you have a Forge.

No Forge without BW sadly. And who would want knights instead of Engineering?

a) because i realize it was pure luck, in Deity Isolation you have no control and view over what AIs do, and i could have lost for example the Pyramids that i used, or Taoism with rather late Philo.

I don't think you should compare the wonder / tech dates you got on this map to normal Deity conditions and assume it was pure luck that you managed the Mids or were first to Tao. The map gimps the AI as well and the AI will just play its normal game (instead of adopting to the settings like the human player) as Shakabrade said.

 

[Doshin]

@Doshin

A Stonehenge, Pyramids, and Colossus opening without Stone or Bronze (but with Marble), however, is a baffling approach for me. Wouldn't want to teach rookies that, would we? (Genuine question).

To answer this: no, I wouldn't, because new players habitually build too many wonders, and this is a weak approach for 95% of maps. It worked well here because it allowed me to win Liberalism in a non-explosive (bulbing) way, therefore allowing me to continue to benefit from the settled Specs throughout the game, whip infra-structure across multiple cities, and minimize diplo hits upon finally meeting the AI (i.e. no need to run a low Caste System, or opt into a risky religion so as to run Pacifism). In isolation, you need to play a long-term game,* so every city needs a Market/Library/Courthouse/Harbor/Observatory etc. My Oxford build was unfortunately slowed by the need to build Research (Wang and Hannibal could research Lib).

*by long-term game, I guess I mean 'if not gunning for Culture or an AP win.'

The usefulness of the Colossus most surprised me. I built it largely for the points, but the coastal was very useful. My cities were very tightly packed, and there were a large number of Plains or Desert tiles simply off limits. It helped keep a large number of cities profitable whenever I wanted to grow them back to size.

Building Stonehenge as an Industrious leader isn't standard, but is not exceptional (inadvisable on a Pangaea map, better elsewhere).

Sample games from the distant past. They're not all especially readable:

Obsolete's SSE/WE (hosted by obsolete)

This is another example of a walkthrough, but instead of being instructive about the intricacies of the game, this showcases a difficult economy, the Super Specialist economy, and how to run it. Obsolete has played many games to prove his economy superior, and while powerful, it does not seem to produce any spectacular victories or be much different than a standard SE, except that he settles all his GP.

Beyond the Sword

• SSE/EE for Deity Masters
• Something Different (SSE/EE Immortal) (Ghandi)
• Food Economy Test (HC)
• Without the Mids (Ghandi)
• SSE/WE with a Pack of Wolves (Ramesses)
• The Great Lighthouse (Ramesses)
• Competing vs Darius I (Ramesses)
• The Insane Walkthrough (Ramesses)
• The Insane Walkthrough (Ghandi)
• The Insane Walkthrough (HC)

Warlords

• The Insane Walkthrough (Ramesses)
• The Unreal Walkthrough (Ramesses)
• The Unreal Walkthrough (Part II Ghandi)
• The Impossible Walkthrough (Ramesses)
• The Impossible Walkthrough (Part II Ghandi)

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I would never advise another player to build the same buildings in all cities. In almost all games, cities should specialized based on raw Food, Hammer, Commerce, Specialists and building (i.e. Shrines) outputs. For example, I would rarely build a Market in every City; I would build it in Cities with high Wealth outputs or Commerce outputs when the Wealth slider in known to be big enough to justify it.

On the other hand, Granaries should almost always be built in all cities. And most half price buildings are worhwhile in nearly all cities. For example, it can be reasonable to build Libraries in nearly all Cities of a Creative leader.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[RagingHordes]

About Mids into Feu bulb and early war:
there is no reason why early stone-Mids can't help a Construction war. Both Rep and Police state help with rushing the DOW date.
Monarchy is an easy trade (for Construction, for instance). The Feu bulb would arrive just in time.

BUT, without chopping and without the whip? You would certainly need a good number of production tiles and the war date could never match the early dates achieved by the explosion of whip-production.

Still, I can see it happening and working.

 

[Jastrow]

Congratulations, Dosh, for being the 3rd person EVER on CFC to win deity isolation. (According to Duckweed).

What am I missing? Why is diety-isolate such an awe inspiring feat? Granted, it is harder to controle, and if you get the wrong combination abroad, you can certainly be left without any chance, but...

BOTM58, not so long ago was Diety, isolated.

I see 17 victories reported, including every different type of victory condition.

It is also not that all the wins are by the Duckweeds or Jesusins of this world either. Certainly everyone on the list is at least a decent player (assuming I qualify as decent), but I am pretty sure over half of us on this list would not refer to ourselves as Diety players...

 

[Doshin]

@STW

I simplify for the sake of readability, but consider that the game will be long (a pre- or post-Lib rush is impossible) so the value of early buildings increases. Moreover, in true isolation, all foreign trade routes will be overseas. This enhances the value of commerce buildings, like Markets, in otherwise low commerce cities.

I haven't done the math; I am going off my own intuition, and dim recollection of Duckweed's advice to "build for the future" when in isolation.

@Jastrow

I don't want to toot my own horn. Was BOTM58 isolated in the manner of a Lonely Heart's map? That is, a game in which access to the AI is off limits before Optics, and no foreign trade routes are available prior to Astronomy?

I don't doubt that other people have beaten or could beat maps of this sort. Maybe they did in BOTM58.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

About Mids into Feu bulb and early war:
there is no reason why early stone-Mids can't help a Construction war. Both Rep and Police state help with rushing the DOW date.
Monarchy is an easy trade (for Construction, for instance). The Feu bulb would arrive just in time.

BUT, without chopping and without the whip? You would certainly need a good number of production tiles and the war date could never match the early dates achieved by the explosion of whip-production.

Still, I can see it happening and working.

Thank you for the productive post. Too often this thread has devolved into a debate about my skills, rather than the bulb opportunities at hand.

I like your suggestion. I have also always liked the synergy between the Pyramids and the Hanging Gardens. Both utilize stone, both generate Great Engineers, and there is no wasted techs between them. One could go Pyramids to Hanging Gardens (thus doubling Great Engineer points) to Construction, make a trade for Monarchy, and then bulb Feudalism right on time. You would have a guaranteed Catapult and Longbow army that is not dependent on resources. Then you could switch in to Serfdom and Vassalage, pick up Bronze Working in a trade, and chop out a highly promoted army faster than you would of otherwise (with Mathematics for the extra chop hammers).

Seems like from there one would tech towards Civil Service. Yes, one can get to Civil Service cheaper through Code of Laws, but teching Civil Service through Feudalism keeps you on a beeline towards Replaceable Parts, Rifling, and Economics.

Or one could pause after the Feudalism bulb to generate gold for upgrading archers to longbows, using the Serfdom/Math chops for strictly for twice promoted (barrage?) Catapults.

What am I missing? Why is diety-isolate such an awe inspiring feat? Granted, it is harder to controle, and if you get the wrong combination abroad, you can certainly be left without any chance, but...

BOTM58, not so long ago was Diety, isolated.

I see 17 victories reported, including every different type of victory condition.

It is also not that all the wins are by the Duckweeds or Jesusins of this world either. Certainly everyone on the list is at least a decent player (assuming I qualify as decent), but I am pretty sure over half of us on this list would not refer to ourselves as Diety players...

I guess it comes down to a number of posters that enjoy making overly assertive, yet inaccurate posts.

b) i edited out a great artist which i got at like 2% chance for great scientist (90%), i have no nerves for this bug anymore as it happens every second game for me when it should happen maybe each 20nd.

90% ≠ 100%. Cheating ≠ winning.

 

[Fippy]

That's what i said, i played for myself as i know there are people here who would disqualify for something like that after you play stupid maps.
I don't need you telling me when i win and when not, and you can stick your cheating comment somewhere.

Moderator Action: Please do not troll.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[shakabrade]

BOTM maps are always enriched im some way except the one Mylene won. I am not sure in that, though. But 17 wins is way too many. Anyway I will try putting some deity iso maps and everyone is welcome to participate to popularize the format. It is not my intention to exclude but exactly the opposite. People in this forum can be to timid without real reason. The worst thing that can happen is losing the game. That is really low in life dissapointments scale. And to be clear, I am no expert and promise no win, just lile in my Budica all warmonger game a year ago where only Snaaty described the win (although he lost the save but we've seen what he can do so no reason), but thread was left with 10+ pages and no victory screen .

Okay, this post is a mess but I dont get to see the whole when typing on the phone.

 

[Fippy]

The botm deity map i won back then was rather hard, but was with barb archers taken out (only warriors running around). But otherwise, not edited and yep the loss ratio was much higher here.

oh and gz on calling the mod in here, you guys are real men.
Moderator Action: You're not allowed to discuss moderator actions in public. Never, ever. That's a hard rule. Please adhere to it.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[shakabrade]

The botm deity map i won back then was rather hard, but was with barb archers taken out (only warriors running around). But otherwise, not edited and yep the loss ratio was much higher here.

oh and gz on calling the mod in here, you guys are real men.

I think this thread is on ''to watch'' list and that mods do pay a visit now and then. I think this thread has lost its purpose with so many derails and that we should all agree to disagree. If we don't want to hold insulting in seemingly educated manner contest, maybe its wise to lock the thread. It is a necro afterall.
Moderator Action: This is true.
So please stay ontopic, and don't derail it further with meta discussions.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Jastrow]

@STW
@Jastrow

I don't want to toot my own horn. Was BOTM58 isolated in the manner of a Lonely Heart's map? That is, a game in which access to the AI is off limits before Optics, and no foreign trade routes are available prior to Astronomy?

I don't doubt that other people have beaten or could beat maps of this sort. Maybe they did in BOTM58.

BOTM maps are always enriched im some way except the one Mylene won. I am not sure in that, though. But 17 wins is way too many. Anyway I will try putting some deity iso maps and everyone is welcome to participate to popularize the format. It is not my intention to exclude but exactly the opposite. People in this forum can be to timid without real reason...

Firstly, my main point is that just saying "Deity isolated" is not sufficient to define how hard a map is. It depends on a lot of other factors. It is clear that the map that Doshin just beat, would have had WAAAYY less then 17 wins if given out as a BOTM. Given the same list of players, I would guess the number would be closer to something like 3.

Having said that, this does not mean that all Diety, isolated are such.

BOTM58 was isolation on an island map, so all AI were isolated from each other as well. This obviously is more favorable, and only the player being isolated. The map of the starting island was also revealed by the map-maker, but that is a negligeable advantage. Our fog-busting units would have had the map before we really needed it anyway.

It was "half" Loneley hearts. Toku could be met by fishing boat, but since he does not open borders, that does not change too much... Other AI's could be met a bit later, but the trading was not lucrative. With a couple of small islands available, foreign trade routes dont mean nearly as much, and the global tech-pace was such that back-filling was minor.

According to Duckweed, the combination of AI leaders in the game were a major reason for it being relatively easier.

As far as I can tell, the map was "natural" and not particularly cooked by the map-maker.

 

[RagingHordes]

@Brennus.Quigley:
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. (unless we are talking about different levels)
No way can you wait until you actually bulb Feudalism to start a Construction war. My point was that you could DOW at the Construction timing and take a few cities. At this point the Feu bulb would be available and it would be just in time to cap the target.
No way can you do this without strat resources. You need Ivory, or at the very least Iron. You need the Stone for the Mids and a relatively good commerce and production start (commerce to tech to Construction at a good tempo and production to get the mids without chops and to make an army). FP cottages and plenty high production tiles (cows, metals, plus the Stone quarry, maybe with ivory, maybe a horse...) could work just fine. So, I believe it can work.

The point is that building Mids and waiting for the GE takes enough time for the AI to likely already have Feu themselves. Construction wars would ideally like to start at least about 10 turns before the target gets Feu (on normal speed).
Ok, I should also say, I am talking about Deity, Pangea, Standard size, Normal speed. Other settings, especially easier settings, may make a Feu bulb more interesting.
For instance AZ has YouTube videos where he plays Immortal difficulty, Oracles Feudalism and caps an AI with Longbows. (without siege!) This makes me fully believe that on non-Deity levels the plays you describe can work just fine.

But also, the Deity strategy we are discussing (Construction war into Feu bulb) is merely enhanced (I do believe sometimes it can be enhanced) by the Feu bulbing possibilities, not enabled by the bulb. It is enabled by a good start with nice tiles, by the power of Elephants, and by strategical focus on the all in early DOW date, something AIs have trouble handling.

 

[Raphs_Sai]

@Brennus.Quigley:
For instance AZ has YouTube videos where he plays Immortal difficulty, Oracles Feudalism and caps an AI with Longbows. (without siege!) This makes me fully believe that on non-Deity levels the plays you describe can work just fine.

Where is this video? I'd love to see it.