The benefits of avoiding bronze working

[Fippy]

He did found Buddhism,without having Myst.
By not going worker first with wet wheat around, instead using some weak 1 commerce tiles.
For everyone else who thinks this is real..let me repeat: he did not go worker first with good tiles to improve and already having techs, no he did grow on 2f1c spice.

Even you 2 funny guys should realize, that nothing about this 1920AD Deity Culture win is worth bragging about. Sometimes they are more stubborn than what seems possible thou, you 2 certainly have the mind power to break barriers.

 

[Doshin]

Anyhoo... I thought I'd offer a competing Bronze Working approach for the isolated start (the second game linked in the OP). I obviously knew the basic parameters (isolated, arid/high sea map, Industrious leader etc.). My game is still in progress.

Initial tech-path went: Mysticism ---> The Wheel ---> Pottery ---> Bronze Working ---> Masonry. I built a Worker first, followed by Stonehenge. The start lacks Stone, but Qin is Industrious, so...

Early pics:

Spoiler :

Most Great People were settled, apart from the first Great Scientist (who built an Academy) and a second (who bulbed Education).

Wang met me before I pushed out, and Hannibal came shortly after. I traded for Philosophy (still no religion) and won Lib in 1060 AD:

Spoiler :

Unfortunately Wang already had Nationalism, and built the Taj on that turn.

After that, I self-teched Optics and met the other AI. Sitting Bull had vassaled his continent:

Spoiler :

I stayed away from the religions and I teched/traded peacefully. I'd been planning a Cannon invasion for a while, but the absence of food and good hammer tiles meant that my production wasn't really up to scratch. It looks like I'll be using Marines and Fighters instead.

The current situation, 1575 AD:

Spoiler :

Saladin is plotting... against Wang, I think. There are no Galleons near his stack, so I should be safe:

If I have time, I'll play the game out over the weekend.

 

[UnforcedError]

That's some impressive military teching you did, Doshin Interestingly the AI doesn't seem to accommodate to these special starts too well. They all seem to be utterly backwards.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

How exactly is this game related to the delayed Bronze Working strategy? Are you also planning to play the delayed Bronze Working strategy for comparison? What is your victory condition goal? What do you plan to with forests that argueably should not exist? If the start doesn't meet the preconditions of the strategy, its validation of the strategy is at best questionable.

Just trying to understand what you hope to accomplish and whether that is even possible in the manner you are attempting it.

Did you post a screenshot of the start before any units moved?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Doshin]

That's some impressive military teching you did, Doshin Interestingly the AI doesn't seem to accommodate to these special starts too well. They all seem to be utterly backwards.

Military teching? But I'm building Broadway.

The AI is backward, for sure. I think the problem is exacerbated by Sitting Bull and Saladin being the two most powerful AI. Neither one is trading with anyone else (although SB does have his vassals).

@STW

It is the Deity game posted here. The starting position is shown in that thread.

I don't think that I can prove anything, but I wanted to provide a corrective to statements like:

Sixth, the detractors have had 10 months to beat a Deity map I beat twice as an Immortal-level player not even as good as I am today. They have not done so. That says something.

We have a two test games published in this thread that was played through by the OP to a victory using the strategy proposed. We have a few players using the same starts using an early Bronze Working strategy, but no one finished the game to the victory screen (at least one player claimed victory by being first to Liberalism, but that is really not adequate, since the victory dates of the two competing strategies can not be compared).

BQ has also asserted that players who do not believe in his strategy should beat this map first. I am attempting to do that via Domquest.

A cultural victory could also be possible via these methods, but I didn't want to attempt this for a variety of reasons.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

He did found Buddhism,without having Myst.
By not going worker first with wet wheat around, instead using some weak 1 commerce tiles.
For everyone else who thinks this is real..let me repeat: he did not go worker first with good tiles to improve and already having techs, no he did grow on 2f1c spice.

I think you're missing the point of that play through. It is not evidence of what a great player I was 10 months ago. It is evidence of an effective bulb strategy (which was proposed ex ante) helping a decent but still improving player beat Deity. I beat that map in spite of myself because I had a good bulb strategy. In fact, that was my first Deity map and I beat it. I was genuinely surprised that no one else that tried could. I agree with you that worker first to improve the wheat is the better play, and indeed I went ahead and did that on my second play through, teching up to pottery and ultimately founding Taoism instead. You're fine to criticize the opening sequence of my first play through, but you are 10 months late. Please don't ignore the second play through just for convenience.

@Doshin

I welcome your play through (perhaps it should be in the actual game thread instead of in the article discussion). I'll be routing for you. You have a nice tech position. Just one question: wooden stonehenge?! That's the last thing I think of when I look at that mini-continent (no stone, don't start with mysticism, no special monument building, you're not making a religious play, etc…). What was the thought process behind that? I have always welcomed a better player coming through to beat the map via a different strategy. Indeed, that is why it was posted. Still, 10 months and counting is quite something… Good luck.

 

[Doshin]

Thanks. I can post my game there if you'd like, but I don't want to bump a long dead thread unless asked, since I don't think there should be 2–3 concurrent threads discussing this one contentious strategy.

Stonehenge is a viable build for an Industrious leader, especially when there is no pressure to claim surrounding land. The wonder only costs 80 (contrast a 60 Stonehenge for a non-Industrious leader with Stone... 20 hammers is nothing). There are various fringe benefits, but the main reason to build it is the constant source of 2 so early on in the game. Settled great people contribute science when in Representation, and settled Great Prophets add the all important hammers. Both are boosted by the Bureaucracy civic.

One thing I tried to do in my game was to set up an empire that could control its own fate, so an out and out race to Lib was not the primary aim. This meant building a substantial amount of infrastructure in a way that is, I think, impossible without Slavery. Whips are more important than chops. I attach a pre-Lib save from 960 AD, since Mylene posted a game in which Lib was won at this date, and the comparison is interesting. If you still have your save from 10 months ago, it would be illuminating to add that file into the mix, although I'm sure that by now it is long since lost...

 

[Abegweit]

I am really surprised that this thread still lives...

The only reason is because Sun Tzu Wu has a strange need to quibble over how absolutely one should take the meaning of the word "never".

The title of this thread is "The benefits of avoiding bronze working". There are two and only two reasons why you might avoid a tech in the game: WFYABTA and bulbing. That's it. I submit that this never applies to BW. Ever. I might avoid Fishing to bulb Engineering. I might avoid Archery to get better techs in trade. This simply does not apply to BW. The tech itself is extremely powerful and it opens up a whole host of other techs. Avoiding it never works. Ever.

This does not say that it is always (or even usually) the first thing I would tech. There are opportunity costs to every move you make in this game. If I start with double wet corn and Mining, my first research target will obviously be Ag. This does not mean I disdain BW, merely that I have higher priorities.

I mentioned a game in which I teched Alpha before BW. You mentioned one in which AZ built the Oracle first. You can be sure that my number one trade priority when I got my goal was BW. Similarly, while I don't know what tech AZ took with his Oracle, you can be sure that if it was Alpha he would have traded for BW ASAP.

I would estimate that the number of games in which you put any goal other than food ahead of BW is less than one in a hundred (and often BW comes first). The number in which you actually trade for the tech is less than one in a thousand. The number in which you can benefit by avoiding it is never to six sigmas. Likely less.

 

[Fippy]

This whole thing has been wildly stretched, first it was about quicker Lib by not using BW.
Now suddenly you would have to win Deity isolation with pretty bad land, that has of course been picked because there are a) few forests...and b) no copper...and c) no need for defense even if there was copper...and d) low food and no happy res. or Cha leader, so whipping has lower returns than normal.

And *all* success would be connected to BW or not..because Lib alone does not mean winning, right?
A person who can still think normally now after all this babbling in here, would ask: If Lib does not mean winning, why does avoiding BW mean winning? Well.............

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

There are two and only two reasons why you might avoid a tech in the game: WFYABTA and bulbing.

Just to show you that your very assertive posts are not exactly accurate, I'll give you a third reason to avoid a technology: obsoleting buildings or wonders.

I might avoid Fishing to bulb Engineering.

Yup. And engineering comes much later than the Civil Service GM bulb or the Feudalism GE bulb. That idea was once controversial. It is now accepted. There are other civics out there besides slavery. Anyway, keep playing how you like.

And *all* success would be connected to BW or not..because Lib alone does not mean winning, right?
A person who can still think normally now after all this babbling in here, would ask: If Lib does not mean winning, why does avoiding BW mean winning? Well.............

It's funny that you use the word babbling. No disrespect intended, but I honestly can't understand what you are saying!

 

[Doshin]

Follow-up post, employing BW for the second illustrative map given in the OP. Conquest Victory, in 1882:

Spoiler :

I carried on teching to Assembly Line and Industrialism. The AI researched most of the Steel/Railroad/Combustion line for me, and I then went to Flight.

In 1730 AD, I bribed Saladin to attack Hannibal. Saladin had an enormous SOD with Artillery, but Hannibal was otherwise more advanced. I figured they'd cancel each other out:

Spoiler :

In 1812 AD, I paid Saladin to make peace with Hannibal (not wanting Hannibal to capitulate) and declared myself on the same turn. The initial stack:

Spoiler :

I had to tread a little carefully, because Hannibal was the tech leader (Infantry/Tanks). But his back had been broken by Arabia, so I ground him down fairly swiftly:

Spoiler :

Sitting Bull was gunning for culture at this point. I took him out of Free Speech to slow his progress:

Spoiler :

After that, it was fairly plain sailing. Battleships + Fighters + Marines, with Bombers later thrown into the mix. Wall of pics:

Spoiler :

Leading to Domination/Conquest victory:

Spoiler :

Thanks for the game, Brennus.Quigley. I enjoyed it, isolation and all.

My first post was probably more relevant for the BW discussion, but the game needed to be played out. I stayed in Slavery for all but 5-turns, on account of the Kremlin. The map is challenging, albeit a little RNG dependent (diplo wise) regardless of the Bronze Working issue.

 

[UnforcedError]

Doshin, great warring with that god-forsaken start How did you build the initial stack against Hannibal? Whips / whip & upgrade?

 

[shakabrade]

Congratulations, Dosh, for being the 3rd person EVER on CFC to win deity isolation. (According to Duckweed).

teamie!

Edit:
Looked at the save. OMG, so many desert and brown tiles. Arid indeed. How was your experience with the AIs?
Were they considerably slower with tech pace since they could cottage 2/3 of the normal number? Or they adapted somehow? I see player's land is awful too, but player can adapt.

I really like how you pulled the ''Obsolete'' off. Although I think you were probably more influenced with recent OCC game (fantastic one) you played.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

What does pulling an "Obsolete" mean in this context?

Nice game Doshin!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Doshin]

Thanks all.

@UE: I put together an army by working the land and whipping coastal tiles. The Transports were upgraded from Galleons, but it's not possible to upgrade earlier Renaissance units to Marines/Battleships/Fighters. Beelining Industrialism helps, because Electricity is good trade bait, and the turns required to then reach Flight provides ample time to build an army.

@SB: The AIs were slower than usual, partly due to the map and partly due to the leaders. Hannibal was the only good techer with a decent amount of land. Had Sitting Bull been anyone else (Mansa... ) or not targeted Culture, he could have been a real problem. Saladin was also effectively out of the tech race too for a long while, because he was the only Hindu leader and, as a zealot, is reluctant to trade. The AI doesn't adapt to the conditions, but their bonuses are so generous that they still cope.

@STW: Pulling an "Obsolete" means running a wonder economy with an Industrious leader by settling Great People in the capital (ideally in Rep.). It is named after the player obsolete, who was a strong advocate of building Stonehenge and other Great Prophet wonders.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

@Doshin

Congratulations. I recognize the strength of your victory, and thank you for presenting it with such detailed screenshots. You are a better player than I. Many talented players tried to show me up on this map before you and failed. A Stonehenge, Pyramids, and Colossus opening without Stone or Bronze (but with Marble), however, is a baffling approach for me. Wouldn't want to teach rookies that, would we? (Genuine question). Nevertheless, an ultra-advanced player like yourself was able to make it work quite well. Bravo.

Congratulations, Dosh, for being the 3rd person EVER on CFC to win deity isolation. (According to Duckweed).

Was I the first or second? Sounds like delayed Bronze Working allowed me to to make a small contribution as well in spite of my limited skills, even if the Slavery/No Huts/No Events Gestapo didn't receive it well.

 

[shakabrade]

@Doshin

Congratulations. I recognize the strength of your victory, and thank you for presenting it with such detailed screenshots. You are a better player than I. Many talented players tried to show me up on this map before you and failed. A Stonehenge, Pyramids, and Colossus opening without Stone or Bronze (but with Marble), however, is a baffling approach for me. Wouldn't want to teach rookies that, would we? (Genuine question). Nevertheless, an ultra-advanced player like yourself was able to make it work quite well. Bravo.



Was I the first or second? Sounds like delayed Bronze Working allowed me to to make a small contribution as well in spite of my limited skills, even if the Slavery/No Huts/No Events Gestapo didn't receive it well.

No offense BUT, I don't count the AP and cultural wins since they need less skill and effort to pull them off and cultural benefits from isolation and arid uncottageable land (which hampers the AI considerably more than a human). Now, winning culture in isolation with Pacal/Mansa/Gandhi lovefest with normal land and non PHI leader would be something I'd agree is a deity win since that would probably have to involve most of the game elements. I was winning Deity cultural wins while I was an Emperor player (I remember the first one with Sury in late 1700s. Still it was nothing but clicking end turn and hoping that I don't get attacked and that Pacal doesn't speed up the culture in his cities). I am not saying that cultural victory is worthless; it is just that it is much easier just to win with culture. Winning culture in 15th and 16th century is the real (micromanagement) challenge in cultural VC.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

No offense BUT, I don't count the AP and cultural wins since they need less skill and effort to pull them off and cultural benefits from isolation and arid uncottageable land (which hampers the AI considerably more than a human). Now, winning culture in isolation with Pacal/Mansa/Gandhi lovefest with normal land and non PHI leader would be something I'd agree is a deity win since that would probably have to involve most of the game elements.

No offense taken. But, wow. You have so many personal qualifiers here that perhaps you should qualify your initial statement with them, since this is all about what you personally consider to be a victory, rather than what actually is. Just saying. Best.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

No offense BUT, I don't count the AP and cultural wins since they need less skill and effort to pull them off and cultural benefits from isolation and arid uncottageable land (which hampers the AI considerably more than a human). Now, winning culture in isolation with Pacal/Mansa/Gandhi lovefest with normal land and non PHI leader would be something I'd agree is a deity win since that would probably have to involve most of the game elements. I was winning Deity cultural wins while I was an Emperor player (I remember the first one with Sury in late 1700s. Still it was nothing but clicking end turn and hoping that I don't get attacked and that Pacal doesn't speed up the culture in his cities). I am not saying that cultural victory is worthless; it is just that it is much easier just to win with culture. Winning culture in 15th and 16th century is the real (micromanagement) challenge in cultural VC.

Do you really think anyone cares how difficult you think each victory condition is? Does pursuing victory conditions you consider harder make one a more skilled player? Does pursuing victory conditions you consider easier make one a less skilled player? Exactly what kind of point are you trying to make? Perhaps you are simply reminiscing about games you have played. It's hard to tell.

I personally consider Cultural Victory to be the most satisfying, especially when trying to do it peacefully (No DoW versus AI and no attempts at enticing the AI to declare on you). War is grossly over-rated in this forum in my opinion. All Victory Conditions are equally valid; some will be easier than others in a given situation. Indeed, one should pursue the Victory Condition that more closely matches one's situation and is easiest to win.

Perhaps we should always win by culture, since that is the easiest victory condition in your opinion?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[shakabrade]

No offense taken. But, wow. You have so many personal qualifiers here that perhaps you should qualify your initial statement with them, since this is all about what you personally consider to be a victory, rather than what actually is. Just saying. Best.

Indeed, all that is IMO.

I am one of those people who are never wrong. Just like you.

For general opinion, it is important how many people agree with you. I am now on the more ''popular'' end but, mostly in RL, I am on the other end and usually bunch of people disagreeing with me has little to no effect in forming my opinion, if they are no experts on the matter.

If something is my personal opinion, that doesn't mean I am wrong. I'd dare to say that that means I am right cause I'd never have an opinion that I believe is wrong. Just like everyone else. Searching for personal qualifiers which should make everything I say questionable is, obviously, redundant and pointless.

Point of authority should be the most important (reliable) factor when deciding accepting or rejecting someone's opinion. When a rookie comes to the forums with revolutionary ideas, it is on rookie to work extra hard to prove that his hypothesis is right not the other way around. If you don't believe in such a system you are free to defend your Ph.D thesis you are proud of in front of me and my baby girl.

There is an order in which things are done. You start playing civ, advance in levels and improving never stops although it slows down at some point. Almost all people who have gone farther than you have gone, realized the power of converting food to hammers, a miracle of Biblical proportions, and snowball effects of earlier cities, infra, army, etc. I still remember you telling that you are very good at whipping in some post million years ago. What if, simply, you are not?