The best tank or panzer today

[Jawz II]

wait a minute, i thought challenger2 was only in prototype stage?

oh well, i usually have a hard time with british armour

always mix challenger with chieftain and all those other tanks that start with the letter "C"

 

[Mikoyan]

wait a minute, i thought challenger2 was only in prototype stage?

oh well, i usually have a hard time with british armour

always mix challenger with chieftain and all those other tanks that start with the letter "C"

Umm... no. Challenger II saw action in "Gulf War II".

 

[stormbind]

wait a minute, i thought challenger2 was only in prototype stage?

It has been in frontline service for many years. First seen in 1998?

always mix challenger with chieftain and all those other tanks that start with the letter "C"

Centurion - Just missed WW2 '45/'46. Many versions, the last ones look just like a small modern tank. Saw action in many wars. I think some nations still use these.

Chieftain - Late cold-war. Has a strange smoothed turret that blends with the chassis. Rubber parts makes it look less than pretty. No longer listed as part of the British Army's inventory but I'm sure I have seen the odd one in Iraq. Many modified vehicles such as moving-bridges and tank-rescue etc.

Challenger - Modern specifications. Developed for desert warfare but had teething problems. Turret is extremely heavy-looking; a lot like a Leopard II. Saw action in Gulf War. No longer in service with the British Army, but other vehicles based on a modified Challenger chassis probably are.

Challenger II - Includes stealth turret and other improvements over the previous version. Saw action in Iraq, perhaps also in the Gulf War. Current front-line service. There are many versions like the 2E (export?) and 2S; I don't know all the differences.

I think every model has had an export market.

 

[stormbind]

when they say the challenger can engage 8 targets simultanously they dont mean it can destroy them all at once, the main gun isnt fully automatic

Do not laugh.

It has a longer weapon-range, so it can fire eight times before the enemy is within range of return fire.

 

[stormbind]

Well I think it is the Leopard 2. Why?

The guns on Abrams and Leopard are equivalent and as good as the Leclerq. The armour of Leo 2, Abrams and Challenger 2 are also equal. The Challenger has to my infos a worse gun. It is not rifled and to my infos it is not so accurate and pernetrable. I spoke a few years ago with a German tank commander and he said that as wll as several books.

There seems to be some problems reading in Germany

Challenger II are equipped with L30 120mm rifled tank guns. Afaik, the British Army has always preferred rifled guns for their tanks.

Other armies swapped to smooth-bore because it's easier/cheaper to fire rocker-propelled amunitions from them.

Rifled is more expensive to make, and compatible ammunition is more expensive to manufacture (rocket-propelled ammo is quite tricky but not impossible). Rifled is more accurate at long-range.

A smoothbore 120mm gun is being developed for Challenger tanks. A technical demonstrator will be produced by 2006. This is either (1) to increase compatibility with NATO ammunition, or (2) to be more competitive in the export market - currently the Challenger II are prohibitively expensive for most nations. I do not know the official reason, I just (today) discovered the existence of a smoothbore alternative from army-technology.com

 

[Jawz II]

Do not laugh.

It has a longer weapon-range, so it can fire eight times before the enemy is within range of return fire.

given bad terrain or impassable terrain, im sure it can fire 8000 times before the enemy gets into range

also depends on which enemy, the speed/terrain handling capabilities etc etc
where did you get "8" from?

quit being funny and i wont laugh

ps.i knew all that stuff about british armour, i just keep mixing the names up

 

[stormbind]

I think 8 is the number of shots the rifled gun can handle in repeated fire. The gun gets very hot so it expands, which is why there is a limit on the number of shots without pausing.

Good crew (they are all full-time professionals) only get between 6 to 8 shots off without pausing, then fatigue sets in, so the hardware isn't a limitation.

It can continue firing after 8 shots, just requires a few seconds delay between shots for cooling. 8 is given as the number of targets it can engage simultanously, this accounts for the amount of tracking data the tank crew can deal with - which I guess includes close range and airborne targets, at the crew's discretion.

As for range, I was comparing C2 vs. M1A1 on flat even surface. C2 is slower, but it will shoot first.

 

[Longasc]

Seems as if the Challenger is really the best thing out there. Too bad that nobody else does notice this!

 

[allhailIndia]

Centurion - Just missed WW2 '45/'46. Many versions, the last ones look just like a small modern tank. Saw action in many wars. I think some nations still use these.

.

Used till recently in India..an Indian version listed in inventory, but not used much...

Most famous use of the Centurion, AFAIK was probably in the tank battle of Assal Uttar in the 1965 Indo-Pak war, where they took on the heavier PAtton tanks of the Pakistani army and defeated them consistently. Its main adavantage was its maneouverability on the soft mud in the Punjab area and its low profile which allowed it to hide in the uncut sugarcane fields and ambush unwary Pattons.

It was a huge embarrasment to the Americans when 60-70 of the much touted Pattons were captured and put on public display...You will still find most of them in and around regimental HQs in India.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

@Adler. The Challenger most definitely does have a rifled gun.

 

[stormbind]

Ah darn! I read some data on the Centurion and Patton, and typed it in... then lost it by clicking a link

M48 Patton (same model?) weigh 52 tons and are equipped with a 90mm or 105mm rifled gun. They seem to have lacked close-range defenses. Failed in Vietnam; the crew spent much of their time on it's back with an M16 for protection. Vulnerable to mines and ran on petrol. Selected by Jordan, Tunisia, Pakistan, Spain, &c.

Centurion are equipped with a 105mm L7 rifled gun. There were at least 8 versions. Selected by India, Sweden, S.Africa, Australia, &c. Also saw action in Vietnam though I found no accounts. Early versions ran on petrol, but later upgrades swapped to deisel. Slower than a Patton.

Centurion's Battle Honours..

Designed in 1943 as the "Universal Tank", first seen in the UK before the end of WW2, and served with the British Army in Korea. Centurion served in Australia from 1951 to 1977, being replaced by the Leopard.

Centurion were again upgraded in 1991, with modern armour, double floor, improved fire detection/suppression system, improved side-skirts, day/night sights, laser rangefinder, improved suspension, and 900hp powerplant.

Following introduction of the Merkava 4 tank, October 2002, the IDF phased out its last Centurion MBTs. Still in service elsewhere.

Scale drawings make these two MBT look similarly sized to me, despite the Centurion being quite a bit older. The actual dimensions were given with different units, and I couldn't be bothered to convert them.

Interesting read on the Centurion - recommended.

 

[Adler17]

I was wrong with the designation. Indeed I meant a rifled gun for the challenger and a smoothbore gun for the others. Nevertheless I looked in my books. The Leo 2 A6 has more armour than the Challenger 2 and the armour of both is the same. The gun is a bit worse when firing certain kinds of ammo. Challenger and Abrams are higher than the Leo 2 and both are not so fast and manuverable than the leeter. Indeed the Leclerq is a bit more faster than the others. To the T 80: this tank has the same firepower than the others due to the ability to start missiles from the gun, but is very light compared with the others so the protection seems to be low.
The Brazilarian (sp.?) Otosario: Indeed there are strong influences by both Leopards but it weights only 45 t. Compared with the 60 t of the others it is a good tank for the 2nd league. But it can´t play for the championship.

Adler

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

To the T 80: this tank has the same firepower than the others due to the ability to start missiles from the gun, but is very light compared with the others so the protection seems to be low.

The T80 has added armour in the form of ERA block's ,basicly it are small arour block's that can jump of the tank when it ,the action of jumping of prevent's dammage to the rest of the tank ,this ERA can be added or removed depending on needs and new ERA technoligy ,it's IMo the best form of arour out there due to it's flexibilety ,customatization abilety and upgrade abilety.

Some picture's of ERA on T72 below

Most new Russian tanks have decreased armor but specially designed to carry ERA block's ,this increases mobillety and give a more flexible armour system.
Note that newer version's of ERA can be layed and opperate in multiple levels.

 

[Jawz II]

I was wrong with the designation. Indeed I meant a rifled gun for the challenger and a smoothbore gun for the others. Nevertheless I looked in my books. The Leo 2 A6 has more armour than the Challenger 2 and the armour of both is the same. The gun is a bit worse when firing certain kinds of ammo.

i think challenger 2 has the thickest top armour in the world, but the new leo2 have more armour than c2 everywhere else


also there are some kinds of munition you cant fire with the rifled gun,without damaging it
i forgot the english names, so youll have to take my word it

either that or google for it

heres a pic of the japanese type 90, which has the leo2 turret(+auto loader)

The T80 has added armour in the form of ERA block's ,basicly it are small arour block's that can jump of the tank when it ,the action of jumping of prevent's dammage to the rest of the tank ,this ERA can be added or removed depending on needs and new ERA technoligy ,it's IMo the best form of arour out there due to it's flexibilety ,customatization abilety and upgrade abilety.

Some picture's of ERA on T72 below

Most new Russian tanks have decreased armor but specially designed to carry ERA block's ,this increases mobillety and give a more flexible armour system.
Note that newer version's of ERA can be layed and opperate in multiple levels.

the kind of Explosive Reactive Armour you are describing i think is under development(the jumping kind), the ERA in use now, only works on impact, and heres the downside, its gone after 1 hit,plus it only works to reduce the velocity of the incoming projectile, not good for anti tank HEAP

you know the kind that sticks to tanks like cow dung and then explodes, turning everything inside into jelly

also, there are anti ERA tandem warheads out now, 2 charges in 1 shot, 1st one clears the ERA, 2nd one hits the tank!

 

[Longasc]

The only way to find it out is to start a war with Britain, Brazil, Israel and the USA.

The Americans will probably cheat and use airpower, I fear!

 

[Mikoyan]

Brazil won't have much to come with, since Osório never got past the prototype stage...

 

[Longasc]

That Saudi-Arabia did not buy the Osorio Tank does not mean it never developed beyond the protoype stage. This is a wrong statement.

If you read up your information, take more care before making such definitive statements.

The thing is, that this tank that is according to Adler playing in a different league to Leopard II and Abrams won the evaluation trials in Saudi Arabia.

Lets quote a few lines: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/EE-T1%20Os%F3rio

 

[Mikoyan]

I've read that before. It never got any buyers and it never entered production.
I'm not saying that it was a bad tank. I'm just saying that you can't compare a project from the 1980's to tanks that are in service today.

 

[Gelion]

http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/5pansar/index.htm
Here's a site on the most known Russian Tanks . I believe Black Eagle is among them. The reason it is not used in the Russian army is that (or so I was told) that some spies stole the design of that tank. Thus it was decided to make money out of it and build even newer tanks with the money recieved....

 

[stormbind]

heres a pic of the japanese type 90, which has the leo2 turret(+auto loader)

Automatics are still not considered reliable in the field, which is why Germany, Britain and USA prefer to use an extra crewman for that role.

But having said that, Russia and France are also pushing these automatic designs.

Btw, MBT are most vulnerable to top-down attacks. British LAW weapons are designed to take advantage of that.