The Celts

[Enrico Swagolo]

Then, why don't nerf Dagda instead?

On one hand Dagda'd beat God-King even at 5 as Production is way superior to Faith, but on the other nerfing that'd require some buffs to the UB perhaps. But then, it's a pretty decent one as it is.

My current thoughts:
Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn , , and Points from kills (1CS = 1 yield scaling with gamespeed). +2 from Barracks, Armories and Citadels.
Epona, the Great Mare: +10 , +10 , and +10 when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
Bran, the Sleeping Guardian: +10 HP Healed in friendly territory, +25% Growth, and +12 when a Citizen is born, scaling with era.
Lugh, the Skilled One: +3 , +3, and +3 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era. or No change.
Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities. (No change)
Ogma, the Learned: +1 for every 3 Citizens in a city, and +3 +3 Great Scientist points in the Capital. + equal to science per turn when you discover a tech.
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 for every 10 per turn, and +1 Golden Age Points for every 5 per turn. +2 Gold per Market and City Connection.
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +2 , +2 +2, and +2 in every City. No from isolation.
Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +3 , +3 , and +3 in coastal Cities.+1 and from fishing boats and Lighthouses.
Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 and from Forests, +1 and from Jungles. +1 from Camps and + 1 , & from plantations.

Okay the reasoning:
Morrigan needs the production bonuses or it's simply worse than the current Lugh until late game. Just 5 cities working markets is 20 per turn. Are you killing 20 CS of units per turn? I don't think so until much later, especially because you'll probably have more than 5 cities. The yields should also scale with game speed. This is obviously for hyper-aggressive or surrounded authority players.
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Epona is obviously perfect for border-blob, and post-nerf hopefully manageable at that.
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Bran should be a defensive pantheon, allowing you to survive as tradition against aggro enemies. I think +10 HP healed is more valuable than stacking city attack bonuses, and the culture on birth is best here. The might be high, but I'd rather nerf it later if needed because buffing is agonizing.
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Lugh seems too front-loaded. It's too good early and bad late, I feel like snowball or die is a bad design. It seems suited for progress.
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Dagda could be nerfed like this: "Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in a city." Local yields means having 2 followers in 2 cities each won't give you any yields, as opposed to currently where you get 1 in your capital. Also followers over citizens mean cities will normally need to be size 5 or 6 to get their first bonus.

HOWEVER You're really over-valuing it. (As was I.) You need 16 followers per city for it to outpace the current Lugh aside from production. If we're talking raw yields you need 12 followers per city to match. That takes quite a while, while Lugh comes online at trade. This seems suited towards tradition, especially when you think you might have a lot of room to expand.
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Ogma is the science victory belief. It's meant for when you're tradition and you've got your plan.
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Nuada seems good for wide play. The early gold leads to late culture unmatched by anything.
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Rhiannon could be re-worked. I tried to offer it a niche by allowing you to be mini-indonesia, but it seems insanely niche.
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Manana Wet banana needs this buff imo. I've tried it 2 or 3 times and it feels like the wrong choice every time. It also seems like the wrong-choice in hindsight. Obviously this one is location-based.
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Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: Another location-based pantheon. I think we agree on it.


So that's my thoughts. I can see good reasons to pick every pantheon I listed, and I don't think any are overlapping in a serious way. The worst seems to be Lugh and Dagda, but I think I've given them both separate uses as explained.

Thoughts?

I agree about mostly everything (if we go without nerfing Dagda) but Lugh. Scaling breaks it, that has to be removed. Efortless super-yields are a bad idea, it's like a free super-jelling that never slows down and requires you to do nothing, starting very strong and only getting stronger with time. Nobody would play Denmark when you could pick Celts, get the very same thing but stronger AND earlier, an arguably better UU and more on top.

Epona seems a bit too harshly nerfed. Why would you take this and get 10 C/S/G once in a blue moon when you can get 3CSG every turn with Luigi? I'd add some yields to X or Y perhaps. Maybe something to stables or dunno.

 

[ElliotS]

I agree about mostly everything (if we go without nerfing Dagda) but Lugh. Scaling breaks it, that has to be removed. Efortless super-yields are a bad idea, it's like a free super-jelling that never slows down and requires you to do nothing, starting very strong and only getting stronger with time. Nobody would play Denmark when you could pick Celts, get the very same thing but stronger AND earlier, an arguably better UU and more on top.

1- Lugh would be worse for ancient/classical, and better than before in medieval and on. I think it's debatable if it's a buff.
2- Lugh would provide much less than Denmark. Denmark gives you 3 + in every city every time you kill a unit, scaling with era. So if you kill 2 units in a turn you outscale Lugh in raw yields. Over he course of a Denmark game you kill well over 2 units a turn, even including the rare times of peace. Also the production is better than gold or science, so Denmark gets better yields, but it requires effort.

How often do borders expand with border blob? (tradition+authority+eponia+rush Ankor Wat) That's where we need to balance Eponia around. Someone needs to run a test game and record when each city is founded and when it expands it's borders in a google spreadsheet.

 

[CrazyG]

Here is what I do with Epona that convinces me its too strong

Authority->Tribute->Tradition->Majesty->Imperium->whatever

Then rush towards Piety's border growth policy. Tribute gives an insane 50 culture whenever you tribute a CS causing border growth in your capital and its very easy to tribute with Pictish warriors. Don't wait for heavy tribute unless its a cultural CS, just keep tribute as often as possible (you can get tribute to repeat very quickly with enough Picts).

It gives culture on border expansion causes a great loop. If you settle forest+invest monument in secondary cities they instantly grow twice with Imperium. I had a game where I unlocked 6 policies in 54 turns (standard), when you hit medieval it just gets better.

Your capital averages growth every 2-3 turns, once you get Golden Age and Piety up its almost every turn. Secondary cities are slower but remember it scales with era. You reach medieval very quickly do to all that science

You are overvaluing Lugh because there is a big opportunity cost to rushing out markets in every city and working the merchant. If you do put your second citizen as a specialist that city won't be growing much. With that said Lugh is really good, I haven't used it in a while but I remember steamrolling several games with it. If it really needs a buff, you could make the 1 culture per world wonder scale.

 

[ElliotS]

Here is what I do with Epona that convinces me its too strong

Authority->Tribute->Tradition->Majesty->Imperium->whatever

Then rush towards Piety's border growth policy. Tribute gives an insane 50 culture whenever you tribute a CS causing border growth in your capital and its very easy to tribute with Pictish warriors. Don't wait for heavy tribute unless its a cultural CS, just keep tribute as often as possible (you can get tribute to repeat very quickly with enough Picts).

It gives culture on border expansion causes a great loop. If you settle forest+invest monument in secondary cities they instantly grow twice with Imperium. I had a game where I unlocked 6 policies in 54 turns (standard), when you hit medieval it just gets better.

Your capital averages growth every 2-3 turns, once you get Golden Age and Piety up its almost every turn. Secondary cities are slower but remember it scales with era. You reach medieval very quickly do to all that science

You are overvaluing Lugh because there is a big opportunity cost to rushing out markets in every city and working the merchant. If you do put your second citizen as a specialist that city won't be growing much. With that said Lugh is really good, I haven't used it in a while but I remember steamrolling several games with it. If it really needs a buff, you could make the 1 culture per world wonder scale.

So do you think the yields being 10 of each would be good, or should we change the culture yield to something else?

Also once again I don't think Lugh needs a buff so much as being less front-loaded.

 

[CrazyG]

So do you think the yields being 10 of each would be good, or should we change the culture yield to something else?

There's an idea I didn't think of. What would you change it to?

The other idea that crossed my mind would be changing Authority so that the culture of tribute doesn't give border growth in your capital. CS tribute focused border blob is a very strong strategy for many civs, the Celts are just especially broken with it

 

[ElliotS]

Probably . Think +12// would be broken? It's much better for pure tradition where you're production starved, and a bit worse for authority/border-blob because they get 3+ production in each city pretty early.

That said is still a strong yield, and Imperium would be even better for a fast town start.

I think is a bit weaker than , and most importantly doesn't feed into more border expansions which I'm sure is part of what make current Eponia so broken.

Thoughts?

 

[CrazyG]

Probably . Think +12// would be broken? It's much better for pure tradition where you're production starved, and a bit worse for authority/border-blob because they get 3+ production in each city pretty early.

That said is still a strong yield, and Imperium would be even better for a fast town start.

I think is a bit weaker than , and most importantly doesn't feed into more border expansions which I'm sure is part of what make current Eponia so broken.

Thoughts?

Production is a really good yield, but I guess its worse than culture. I'd have to try it before calling it OP

 

[ElliotS]

My thoughts:
Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn , , and Points from kills (1CS = 1 yield scaling with gamespeed). +2 from Barracks, Armories and Citadels.
Epona, the Great Mare: +12 , +12 , and +12 when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
Bran, the Sleeping Guardian: +10 HP Healed in friendly territory, +25% Growth, and +12 when a Citizen is born, scaling with era.
Lugh, the Skilled One: +3 , +3, and +3 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era. or No change.
Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities. (No change)
Ogma, the Learned: +1 for every 3 Citizens in a city, and +3 +3 Great Scientist points in the Capital. + equal to science per turn when you discover a tech.
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 for every 10 per turn, and +1 Golden Age Points for every 5 per turn. +2 Gold per Market and City Connection.
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: Internal Trade routes grant +3, +3, +3 to the destination, scaling with era. Earn upon completion.
Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +3 , +3 , and +3 in coastal Cities.+1 and from fishing boats and Lighthouses.
Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 and from Forests, +1 and from Jungles. +1 from Camps and + 1 , & from plantations.

Production is a really good yield, but I guess its worse than culture. I'd have to try it before calling it OP

I think the fact that it won't trigger more border expansions is the biggest factor.

Also what do you think about my Rhiannon idea? It's now made for when you're isolated or near Japan.

 

[CrazyG]

Also what do you think about my Rhiannon idea? It's now made for when you're isolated or near Japan.

Looks really similar to Mannanan

 

[Txurce]

Also what do you think about my Rhiannon idea? It's now made for when you're isolated or near Japan.

Actual yields aside, this is the sort of situational pantheon that the mod would benefit from.

 

[Txurce]

Looks really similar to Mannanan

Except you would clearly take one over the other, based on geography and neighbors.

 

[tu_79]

I actually really value defensive bonuses a lot (shoshone is my favorite civ right now) and I consider the bonus city attack from tradition pretty good.

Here is how I approach comparing the Celts to others. Your 'pantheon' is 3 faith per city, and whatever the bonus of your druidic gods is your 'unique ability'. Now you have a top tier UU, flexibility in choosing your UA after the game begins, and the religious pressure thing as well, so the 'UA' should be weaker than other UAs, but not too weak.

So my question would be, how good is 1 culture per city, 25% growth, and 100% city RCS as a UA? I think its bad, a decent comparison is Indonesia who gets 20% growth as a monopoly, plus much more. Obviously this comparison has problems, but I think overall the additional benefits of those other plantations is worth more than the city defense bonus. So I think its reasonable to change that 1 culture per city to "6 culture on citizen birth, scaling with era". Overall a buff, but not that big of a buff. It would also help make the Celts less front loaded to introduce a few more effects which scale with era. To me, it seems more interesting as well.

In general, other than Rhiannon, all I think is needed are number tweakings. I don't think the celtic pantheons ever got that much tuning

You're forgetting that celts are also the Swiss Knife of civ 5. Being able to stand well no matter the conditions is also a feat.

 

[CrazyG]

You're forgetting that celts are also the Swiss Knife of civ 5. Being able to stand well no matter the conditions is also a feat.

"flexibility in choosing your UA after the game begins"

Except you would clearly take one over the other, based on geography and neighbors.

Bingo

 

[ElliotS]

Does anyone else have ideas for a Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty rework?

 

[Txurce]

Does anyone else have ideas for a Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty rework?

I think you have the right idea: self-sufficiency. To differentiate from Mannanan, why not leave the bonus gold, but replace bonus food and production with an extra route per era?

 

[ElliotS]

I think you have the right idea: self-sufficiency. To differentiate from Mannanan, why not leave the bonus gold, but replace bonus food and production with an extra route per era?

I feel like then you would just use your trade-routes externally. What if it was: "+1 trade route per era, Internal Trade routes give double yields and upon completion."

That might sound like a lot but even if 100% of your trade routes are internal that's about 24-32 or per turn in classical post sailing with a lot of opportunity costs. The raw yields are lower than the others, but can be focused and aren't dependent on anyone else.

There's enough other synergy to make me feel it would be useful at that level.

 

[CrazyG]

Trade routes are a good approach. The issue with 3, +3, +3 to the destination as a specific suggestion is that its exactly what Mannanan gives.

I think diversifying the internal routes by including ,, or is better than a % to buff to yields.

 

[Txurce]

Trade routes are a good approach. The issue with 3, +3, +3 to the destination as a specific suggestion is that its exactly what Mannanan gives.

I think diversifying the internal routes by including ,, or is better than a % to buff to yields.

This was my thought as well. At first I worried it was too similar to Lugh, but trade routes make it different enough (and encourage internal routes).

 

[ElliotS]

Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn , , and Points from kills (1CS = 1 yield scaling with gamespeed). +2 from Barracks, Armories and Citadels.
Epona, the Great Mare: +12 , +12 , and +12 when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
Bran, the Sleeping Guardian: +10 HP Healed in friendly territory, +25% Growth, and +12 when a Citizen is born, scaling with era.
Lugh, the Skilled One: +3 , +3, and +3 in Cities with a Specialist, scaling with era. or No change.
Dagda, the All-Father: +1, +1, +1 , and +1 for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities. (No change)
Ogma, the Learned: +1 for every 3 Citizens in a city, and +3 +3 Great Scientist points in the Capital. + equal to science per turn when you discover a tech.
Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 for every 10 per turn, and +1 Golden Age Points for every 5 per turn. +2 Gold per Market and City Connection.
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: Internal Trade routes grant +2, +2, +2 to the destination, scaling with era. +1 Trade route per era.
Mannanan, Son of the Sea: +3 , +3 , and +3 in coastal Cities.+1 and from fishing boats and Lighthouses.
Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 and from Forests, +1 and from Jungles. +1 from Camps and + 1 , & from plantations.

Thoughts?

 

[Gazebo]

Just FYI new beliefs need to use existing belief mechanics.

G