The Celts

Why the only direction get the mod is barb kills and warmongers? Are there not enough civilizations war-oriented?

Can't we have some diversity with some more passive civs or will it finish with a mod where all civs have the same gameplay regardless are their UA, UB and UU?

Celts were not conquerors, thei did just defend themself against roman empire.
 
Why the only direction get the mod is barb kills and warmongers? Are there not enough civilizations war-oriented?

Can't we have some diversity with some more passive civs or will it finish with a mod where all civs have the same gameplay regardless are their UA, UB and UU?

It is a unique unit, in fact it is a unique unit earning faith from kill, I don't really know how you would make that non-combat-oriented.

Celts were not conquerors, thei did just defend themself against roman empire.
Which would earn them faith.

Also, the Celts were conquerors, definitely.
 
The Celts, as a historical concept, are amorphous anyways. Boudicca was of the Iceni, and, as such, did a fair share of fighting:

Boudica led the Iceni and the neighbouring Trinovantes in a large-scale revolt:

...a terrible disaster occurred in Britain. Two cities were sacked, eighty thousand of the Romans and of their allies perished, and the island was lost to Rome

Ultimately, Strec, almost all the civs in Civ 5 are in it because they were warforged kingdoms/states/empires. War is history, history is war. That's just the way it is.

G
 
Thanks to confirm.

I don't say that some civs must not do war, they would be destroyed, surely. I just say that not all must be expansive, some have just to defend or re-conquer their territory.

Faith of celts comes from druids, not warriors.
 
I don't say that some civs must not do war, they would be destroyed, surely. I just say that not all must be expansive, some have just to defend or re-conquer their territory.

There are a few defensive civs, Shoshone comes to mind as a shining example.
The celts however really do not strike me as defensive, but even with this setup they don't necessarily need to be aggressive. They can do an early war if they want to and then focus on defense, expansion and culture.
 
I'm not saying that +5 faith is 100% perfect. Maybe it's too much, maybe it isn't. The problem is that the argument of "+4 yields for the low low price of 3 citizens!" isn't really taking in the grand picture. Let me quick say: yes, it is better than the God-King 4-for-6 that others have access to. Moving on.

Look at Desert Folklore. +2 Faith/+1 Food/+1 Gold from improved desert tiles. Your city starts at some desert territory. Your next city or two will be near some desert terrain as well. A decent city will have what, some stone, incense, some wheat fields, maybe iron hills, oil, heck let me list them all according to the Civilopedia:
  • Iron
  • Oil
  • Aluminium
  • Uranium
  • Sheep
  • Stone
  • Gold
  • Silver
  • Gems
  • Marble
  • Cotton
  • Incense
  • Copper
  • Salt
  • Amber
  • Jade
  • Lapis

Your starter city is going to have 6-10 of this stuff easy. The next two have 5ish too. Yes, you have to improve them, but you were going to do that anyway. So you maybe buy a worker with some early gold or make one, and start improving. Let's be generous and say that you manage to hookup only a mere 5 of them by the time you are 10 pop.

10 pop = 3 "Celtic 4-yield" (3/3/3/3 aka 12). 5 Desert Folklore = 2/1/1 * 5 = 10/5/5 (aka 20). Sure, it doesn't include science, but its almost DOUBLE what the Celts have. And remember, the Celts can't pick standard beliefs at all. But wait, math isn't done!

You have 10 pop. Let's say you got your pantheon at 3 Pop. You now have... two followers. What? Yes, you don't get everyone all at once. When you hit 6 Pop, you will for a time only have 4 followers before it will jump up to 5. When you hit 10 pop, you'll only have 7-8 followers. No matter how fast your Pop grows, you only gain followers at a standard rate. Remember you are Celtic, so you are relying on passive spread, so you can't get a mega 10/10 citizen boost from a Missionary.

The above scenario is quite realistic. Your 2nd city, when it is pop 5, can easily be working 5 improved desert resources. Once again, that is 10/5/5 = 20 yield. That same city with the Celtic-4-Yield will, at best, have 5 followers, aka, 1/1/1/1 yield. Four versus Twenty. Which do you prefer?

Later in the game, yes, the Celtic-4-Yield can be powerful. Remember though that it is their UA, so it's supposed to be better than standard. But you have to keep in mind that by the time that it becomes amazing +5 faith is a pathetic drop in the bucket. You have any other Civ with a religion? Enjoy making 50-200/FPT by the Renaissance. 5 Faith? Big whoop.

If you have a religion as the Celts, +5 faith is basically nothing (5 faith will buy you that 1,000 faith GP in only 200 turns! What a bargin!). If you don't have a religion as the Celts, then that +5 faith doesn't really do much anyway. You won't have any special buildings, you won't get the religion founder buildings, no pagodas, you won't have unit-faith-buy. All you'll have is access to buying GP with faith from full policy trees. In either case, +5 amounts to nothing long term, and short term, half the regular pantheons literally blow it out of the water and leave it crying.

Yes, my example used Desert Folklore, one of the "more OP" beliefs. The point is though, that they benefit from the +5 faith without it being ungodly powerful; I believe it is overall balanced and useful, if not necessary.
 
You forgot to include pictish warriors and great works in your math. Also it's +5 on TOP of the bonus you get from a pantheon, which may double/triple the speed to the first great prophet.
 
I'm not saying that +5 faith is 100% perfect. Maybe it's too much, maybe it isn't. The problem is that the argument of "+4 yields for the low low price of 3 citizens!" isn't really taking in the grand picture. Let me quick say: yes, it is better than the God-King 4-for-6 that others have access to. Moving on.
I mostly brought the 3 yield per 4 citizens because it is completely absurdly strong in late-game, and this +5 fpt change allows you to pick it every time with no care in the world and still get a religion.

Look at Desert Folklore. +2 Faith/+1 Food/+1 Gold from improved desert tiles. Your city starts at some desert territory. Your next city or two will be near some desert terrain as well. A decent city will have what, some stone, incense, some wheat fields, maybe iron hills, oil, heck let me list them all according to the Civilopedia:
  • Iron
  • Oil
  • Aluminium
  • Uranium
  • Sheep
  • Stone
  • Gold
  • Silver
  • Gems
  • Marble
  • Cotton
  • Incense
  • Copper
  • Salt
  • Amber
  • Jade
  • Lapis

Your starter city is going to have 6-10 of this stuff easy. The next two have 5ish too. Yes, you have to improve them, but you were going to do that anyway. So you maybe buy a worker with some early gold or make one, and start improving. Let's be generous and say that you manage to hookup only a mere 5 of them by the time you are 10 pop.
Honestly, I have no idea what kind of maps you are playing, but the most desert resources I've ever had in one city was 6, and that was with most of them being in the 'third ring' meaning I would have to buy 2 overpriced desert-tiles to get to them, and work them even though they're a lot worse than farmed floodplains.

Most realistically you're going to manage to get 3 resources that gives you faith within range of your starting-city, that being if you don't happen to start in the jungle, at which point you can't improve any of the resources.
Anyways, sure 3 resources is still going to net you 6 faith per turn once you've connected them, and that is more than realistically most Celtic beliefs are going to provide. The main difference here however, is that the Celtic beliefs provide a lot more than just the faith, and most of them aren't exactly terrain-based so you can settle your cities wherever you want and still reap the benefits.


However if you want an extremities comparison, there is a celtic pantheon providing you with 1 faith for every worked forest-tile. You start your first city in the forest, honestly foreststarts are so common that you should get one within 2 or 3 rerolls every game (unlike viable desert-starts as in your example). In this forest you're going to have 3 luxuries, since the only things that can actually spawn in full forest is either plantation-based or camp-based, the odds are actually pretty good that you get 3 camp-based resources. On top of that, most of your bonus-resources are going to be Deer, as only deer and iron can actually spawn in forest (technically coal, aluminum and uranium as well, but whatever).
You starting on a forest-tile means you're going to build your first shrine in 3 turns, meaning you start out with an advantage over the desert-start when it comes to getting your pantheon out. After you have the pantheon every citizen in your city is going to provide you with +1 faith, no improvements required. This is going to land you the first religion in the game every time.
 
Quote Funak saving time here we go: I'm not sure if I was clear in my tirade. I was just trying to point out that +5 faith as a UA doesn't seem that OP for the Celts. And I'm glad Gazebo wants to test things out, because that works much better than theorycrafting, and frankly I'm crappy at it anyway.

Also, Fractal, Large, Normal start. Tons of desert resources. 2+ wheat easy, almost always 2 combined from stone/marble/iron, almost always 1 sheep. When the game starts you at the desert, I've found that it's at least 5+ within 2 rings, at least for the Capitol. I thought the resource clumping was odd, but now that I'm playing on Earth (standard size, the vanilla earth map) the resources are WAY more clumped together. Maybe I'm just hitting some RNG oddities.

My apologies for being long-winded and never really stating the point that I had set out to make. :-) (and if you did understand, well, you still make some great points!)
 
Quote Funak saving time here we go: I'm not sure if I was clear in my tirade. I was just trying to point out that +5 faith as a UA doesn't seem that OP for the Celts. And I'm glad Gazebo wants to test things out, because that works much better than theorycrafting, and frankly I'm crappy at it anyway.

The real issue wasn't how good +5 faith was, the real issue was that +5 faith guarantees you a religion(if not the first religion) no matter what you do. Religions are powerful and rare enough that you should have to work for them.
 
You forgot to include pictish warriors and great works in your math. Also it's +5 on TOP of the bonus you get from a pantheon, which may double/triple the speed to the first great prophet.

I didn't mention the Pictish Warriors because frankly, they suck. You have a unit that is essentially a spearman. It isn't even going to one-shot a barb archer. You see that barb camp, the one with the archer? Great! We can take it!

Scenario: You find an upgrade Goody Hut in the first 5 turns and have a Pictish Warrior!

Battle:
T1: Move onto the hill next to camp, turn ends.
T1-AI: Archer attacks you take 20 damage.
T2: Attack barb archer - it takes 65 damage. You take 16 damage from battle. End Turn.
T2-AI: Archer attacks you for 13 damage.
T3: You kill the archer, taking 11 damage from battle. You earn a promotion.

Result: 3 Faith gained. Your Pictish Warrior has approximately (100 - 20 - 16 - 13 - 11 + 10 = 50) 50 HP. You now spend the next 5 turns healing (outside territory, since you were exploring and barb hunting for that juicy faith). You spent around 8 turns to gain 3 faith. Congratulations! (*remember that as you take damage, you deal less damage. A single opening ranged shot on your full health Pictish Warrior can add 2 turns easily)

The above scenario is extremely realistic. I've tested it a dozen or so times (during reloads for other tests). Now, maybe on Settler you get some amazing +200% vs Barbs, I don't know. Maybe you take the Authority opener and get another bonus. But in the end, you are still going to suffer wounds that you can't avoid.

Take a Pictish Warrior VS Hand-Axe. You won't always get the first attack, and if you don't, you will take 40-70 damage and have to heal it for 6-ish faith. Even with Raging Barbs and an army of 5 Pictish Warriors, you aren't going to be gaining any faith of consequence. If you go to war, the enemy either: doesn't have enough units to gain much faith (they are weak and poor, you are on settler), or: they have butt ton of units and by the time you can assault them with 3+ Pictish Warriors they are rocking Longswordsmen (you are on deity).

That's why I didn't mention it. I'm aware that Gazebo is going to try buffing it, and frankly I can see why. You can't farm diddly-squat with Pictish Warriors. Please feel free to try and post your results. My results are from 6 games played in the last week as the Celts. Have fun :P

Lastly, how quick are YOU getting great works? There are only THREE ways to get a Great Work early in the game to matter for Religion-faith/Pictish Warriors/Etc.

#1: The Parthenon (requires Progress Policy tree, and Drama & Poetry, which is located in:
Code:
Trapping - Fishing - Sailing - Drama & Poetry

Animal Husbandry - Military Theory - Writing - links to D&P

The Wheel - Trade - links to Writing

The Parthenon comes with a great work.

Second option: Writer's Guild. Located in D&P and takes all the techs listed above. Must be built in a city, must be staffed, and then it will take 25-30 turns to get a single Great Work.

Third Option: Tradition Policy tree. As your fourth policy (opener + 3 more) you get a building with a Great Writer slot. Must be staffed. Because it only has 1 specialist slot, it will take closer to 40 turns (because of the +15% Great People policy above it that must be taken) instead of the 25-ish from the 2-specialist Writer's Guild.

Once you've managed to get ONE of those, please enjoy your +2 faith. If you think that it can make a difference, I'd love to know why, because I just can't see it.
 
Transfering faith from UA to UB is good option, it would make celts more active (and others civs that chase religion would feel slightly better).
 
The UB unlocks way too late for this to be relevant.

I'd be down with the Cèilidh (My friend who speaks Gaelic assures me this is pronounced: "Kaylee" :eek:) Hall being unlocked earlier. That sort of gathering occurred much before opera.
 
I'd be down with the Cèilidh (My friend who speaks Gaelic assures me this is pronounced: "Kaylee" :eek:) Hall being unlocked earlier. That sort of gathering occurred much before opera.

It is unlocked in classical now I think, and it's a circus, not a opera.
 
I like and support the faith on UB, though doesn't it already have +3 faith (going from memory pre-coffee)? And it can't be too much or else it'd be too good with 4+ cities. Still, I I like the newer approach in thought; better than my one-track campaign. :-)

Also, Kaylee?! Wow. Reminds me of the song Kyrie by Mr. Mister. If you've never looked that up, it somewhat parallels Baba Yetu from Civ 4. Look that up too if you need to. Awwurgh I need to go listen to all of these!
 
There is an enormeous difference between faith on UA/UB and faith on kill.

Faith on kill entirely depends on the type of map you choose (huge/small, pangea/islands, crownded or not, proximity of neighbors and barbs camps, ....)

Faith on UA/UB is stable and can be planned, faith on kill as an important part of luck.

If you play for example an island map you must learn 4 techs at least to be able to build pictish and learn them to swim, hoping there are barbarians near.


For the rest I hope at least G. have some reference because I think something have been forgotten. Is there somewhere a list saying for each civilization wihch type of gameplay is favorized and which type of victory is the better?
 
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