The Chinese Unique Power

[Leoreth]

I didn't want to address this now but reviewing China's tech pace has revealed that it's important.

Basically, the problem is that balancing China's tech speed is very difficult. They usually start out slow, but at some point overtake all other civilisations and then usually end up as the clear tech leader by a wide margin. Only their collapse (usually at the hands of the Mongols) puts an end to it, and their respawn is technologically far enough behind for the problem not to come up. But if they survive their tech level only accelerates to unhistorical levels and never slows down.

In many ways, China with its great terrain but slow start has the most exponential tech curve in the game. I tested them with various configurations (different modifiers) and even with the UP completely disabled that was the case. They seem to reach tech parity with other civs around 200 BC and shortly after gain a significant lead. Historically, they should probably be less behind in the ancient era, be competitive in the late classical era, take the lead in the medieval period and the quickly fall behind again. In the hypothetical scenario of surviving the Mongol invasion, they still should plateau and not continue their exponential growth.

As mentioned above, such a outcome is already hard enough to balance without the UP (and I don't think possible without era based modifiers which are disabled as well at the moment), but the UP exacerbates the exact problem that I need to address. Or put another way, any solution to the tech pace problem would directly counteract the UP so I cannot attempt them (for example China needs to be exempted from the tech leader penalty because it would nullify the UP).

In other words, China's UP needs to be replaced with something that does not cause an exponential tech speed.

This thread is here to discuss ideas for the replacement. I would like to focus on ideas that would help China technologically in the classical and medieval eras only, or encourage isolation in some way. But I am also open to ideas in general.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

How about "Units within your borders cost no maintenance?"

 

[star15389]

Cities require less food stores to grow? That way China can be working lots of tiles fast to get a big tech lead early but will stop growing and then be outpaced by other civs with better modifiers once they're working all their tiles too

 

[Tigranes]

Power of Literati. I suggest to tie technological progress with military performance. Give China mediocre tech modifiers but make it so that for every unit killed China gets same amount of beakers as was the cost the killed unit in hammers . And conversely -- for every unit lost China loses double the amount of beakers 2x compared to the hammers of the lost unit.

When things go good at battlefield -- Chinese literati get inspired and contribute to technological advancement. Otherwise they get disappointed, decadent and unproductive.

 

[Sarius1997]

+25% techspeed, but -5% techspeed for every non-vasall diplo relation before the Rennesaince age? Encourages isolation

 

[citizenofdoom]

Troll : The power of Leoreth : The First Great Person is Leoreth and if Leoreth is born, China will have a super-tech rate until Mongol born, China will automately goes to Stone Age.
My idea : Make northern China become all core and southern china become foreign area ( due to mass civil war in China in the past ) until renaissance era. Make a independence power in guangzhou. I think make Centralism and Tribute become available to China since first age.

 

[Guillermo11]

China didn't seek isolation tho. The Chinese did maintain relations with other powers, but the sheer distance and the natural barriers (deserts, mountains and rainforest) made it so only their tributaries ( and the nomads) were close enough to be diplomatically important. That is somewhat represented by China being able to get extra income from resource trade (between 50-60 gold per turn) by selling silk, incense, cothon, rice, etc to the Europeans but being too far for war or bad relations to affect them in any other way.
As for suggestions, I like Imp. Knoedel "no maintainance for units within cultural borders" as that would help counter the cost of the numerous "border guards" the Chinese need... But if could snowball terribly. Can you imagine what a Chinese could do if he could literally gather any amount of soldiers he wants? Usually unit cost + Chinese high inflation counters it.
As for the Chinese power, it could be either +1 science per specialist (which would help earlier and modern Chinese science production, but be relatively less powerful in the medieval-renaissance eras due to the plantation-based economy)(maybe it should grow in the moder era, maybe it's enough) or something related with stability (given the focus Chinese culture give it) on the lines of: +3 happiness as long as the empire is solid, +1 happiness as long as the empire is stable, since that would give them a huge incentive not to overexpand, while also being far more significant early and later on, than during the renaissance when you get access to all those luxuries, while also representing the great civil unrest during their eras of instability (the amount of happiness may have to be balanced (or adjusted to era), due to +3 happiness being too strong early or too weak later). While I understand that limiting Chinese power to pre-reinassance eras is supposed to represent their "golden age", you already explained that they would get it just by fully using their area, so a power focused earlier and later seems like a good choice (since China has become a great power again nowadays)
PD: I just read the answer to my "remove marshes proposal". While I would still like it, it's your mod and you know it far better than me, so you call the shots .

 

[Leon Michiel]

Is it possible to encourage AI to increase the culture slider at expense of science when they're tech leader, or are otherwise advancing too fast? In addition to reducing unbalancing tech leads, it also emphasizes culture more which is much needed. Right now as player I'll easily out-culture other civs, even when they're ahead of me.

 

[cmakk1012]

Is it possible to encourage AI to increase the culture slider at expense of science when they're tech leader, or are otherwise advancing too fast? In addition to reducing unbalancing tech leads, it also emphasizes culture more which is much needed. Right now as player I'll easily out-culture other civs, even when they're ahead of me.

I’d even argue that that is historical for civs like China and Japan—in a certain sense that’s actually Japanese UHV1!

 

[Leoreth]

So I went swimming and am back with more ideas. Weird how three evenings of thinking about this problem and doing research didn't result in anything and here we are.

Cities require less food stores to grow? That way China can be working lots of tiles fast to get a big tech lead early but will stop growing and then be outpaced by other civs with better modifiers once they're working all their tiles too

I like this idea, and would at least try it out in the actual game. It's true that this would provide an early bonus which balances itself as the game progresses.

My idea : Make northern China become all core and southern china become foreign area ( due to mass civil war in China in the past ) until renaissance era. Make a independence power in guangzhou. I think make Centralism and Tribute become available to China since first age.

I don't want a carbon copy of the Egyptian UP, but adjusting their core might still be a good move.

or something related with stability (given the focus Chinese culture give it) on the lines of: +3 happiness as long as the empire is solid, +1 happiness as long as the empire is stable, since that would give them a huge incentive not to overexpand, while also being far more significant early and later on, than during the renaissance when you get access to all those luxuries, while also representing the great civil unrest during their eras of instability (the amount of happiness may have to be balanced (or adjusted to era), due to +3 happiness being too strong early or too weak later). While I understand that limiting Chinese power to pre-reinassance eras is supposed to represent their "golden age", you already explained that they would get it just by fully using their area, so a power focused earlier and later seems like a good choice (since China has become a great power again nowadays)

That is close to what I came up with, although I would go more directly via commerce or science.

The Power of Mandate of Heaven: +10% commerce/research or -10% upkeep per stability level

Combined with sufficiently bad base modifiers of course. As you mentioned, that is very appropriate of the Chinese view on their own history.

Is it possible to encourage AI to increase the culture slider at expense of science when they're tech leader, or are otherwise advancing too fast? In addition to reducing unbalancing tech leads, it also emphasizes culture more which is much needed. Right now as player I'll easily out-culture other civs, even when they're ahead of me.

I’d even argue that that is historical for civs like China and Japan—in a certain sense that’s actually Japanese UHV1!

That is also a good point, I will look into it.

 

[pernas]

Maybe their wonders are also worth taking a look at, the forbidden palace and the grand canal are 2 of the very best economic wonders in the game.

India also has a lot of good land, but is significantly harder to get far ahead of everyone else, even for the player in my experience at least. So maybe the chinese modifiers should be harsher.

They should have more rebel problems, maybe represent the numerous chinese civil wars with rebels or independent cities. Right now, you only need a couple of units fortified in the hills near Tibet and a few spearmen in the north.

 

[cmakk1012]

India also has a lot of good land, but is significantly harder to get far ahead of everyone else, even for the player in my experience at least. So maybe the chinese modifiers should be harsher.

I dunno, I’ve seen India be an ahistorical tech monster too. The trick is that they’re much more likely to collapse during the medieval period than China—and if they don’t the Mughal spawn and flip completely does them in.

 

[pernas]

I dunno, I’ve seen India be an ahistorical tech monster too. The trick is that they’re much more likely to collapse during the medieval period than China—and if they don’t the Mughal spawn and flip completely does them in.

Exactly, a lot more stuff goes horribly wrong for India, China only has to worry about Mongolia for the entirety of the game, and even that's not that bad when compared to the mughal spawn. There's also later even english conquerors for India, while the opium war, the japanese invasion and the manchus aren't modelled at all.

China is pretty much free to do whatever it wants for the whole game untouched by the rest of the world, while the other ancient civs get attacked by everything under the sun. India, Babylon, Egypt, Rome, Persia, all have to deal with a lot of barbs and civs that the game throws at them.

 

[citis]

An early market? Fragmented start? Strengthen intercontinental trade routes over cottages?
Better granary to help early population as proposed before?

 

[citizenofdoom]

India, Babylon, Egypt, Rome, Persia, all have to deal with a lot of barbs and civs that the game throws at them.

The only thing I know that barb is very easy to deal with, especially for the Roman - build the city of Massilla, Aemona Iulia. Build Rome - Make many specialist in rome. ==> Rome will be untouched by barb and it's really a powerhouse.
But the thing I can't do is UHV and URV, i can't do a single one, the victory I've won in DoC is Domination, Cultural, Time and Space Race so don't do like me if u aiming 4 UHV or URV

 

[citizenofdoom]

@pernas is raising an extremely valid point. the opium wars...the century of decline...the seven unequal treaties....this should be scripted in.

There will be no 3rd cen crisis if Roman governs the empire good enough, DoC not History.

 

[cmakk1012]

@pernas is raising an extremely valid point. the opium wars...the century of decline...the seven unequal treaties....this should be scripted in.

Thing is I’ve avtually seen some of that decline happen—Portugal acquires Cantão fairly frequently somehow. The trick is that they then lose it to a Congress one hundred percent of the time

 

[soul-breathing]

I prefer the suggestion in #4. In the history of China, a strong dynasty often be along with continuous military victory. When the dynasty is weak, also there's many defeats in military(Late Qing Dynasty for example).

It may not be beakers with victory, also could be culture, GPP, or something else.

 

[cmakk1012]

Has anyone asked the Chinese RFC DOC people yet? I assume those masterminds will have opinions on something like this

 

[catacau]

What about making the silk road much more powerful and spread through Chinese territory? And then you can decrease their modifiers.

 

[LikeNothing]

Since 600AD China is playable, it is better if China's UP gradually loses effect after Medieval Era, instead of disappearing suddenly. Would make for more varied and realistic results.

The Power of Examinations: Each time you create a GP, your cities receive extra and [% or %] for X number of turns.

The Power of the Mandate of Heaven: Stability above X creates extra and [% or %] in your Cities.

The Power of the Mandate of Heaven: Running the Monarchy or Despotism Civics enables the Meritocracy, Regulated Trade, Secularism, and Tributaries Civics.