The Civ V Expansion Wishlist v2.0
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Stefanskantine
Angry Partisan
"Education Fever"
Libraries and Universities cost +1 upkeep, but produce +25% science
Suho1004
Warlord
May I share I few thoughts on your ideas?
One thing that always bugged me about how the hwach'a were implemented is that, historically, hwach'a weren't meant to be used as siege weapons against cities. They were meant to be used against large formations of troops. I know it goes against the grain to give a UU a penalty, but I think hwach'a should be less effective against hard targets (cities). In the interest of gameplay, maybe have them the same strength as cannon but just give them a bonus against troops outside of cities? That would still make them pretty powerful.
I like the idea of turtle ships in general, but they predated widespread use of cannons on ships (at least in East Asia). The armor was mostly there to defend against enemy archers, I believe.
More importantly, though, I'd like to see Korea have a UU/UB combination, rather than two UUs. Especially during the Joseon period (if we're going with Sejong the Great--and I agree, by the way), Korea was not a very warlike nation, even though they did have to fight off a number of invasions. I would keep the hwach'a over the turtle ship, simply because they probably had a greater effect (turtle ships were indeed used, but it was the knowledge of local waters and the tactical genius of the naval commanders (Yi Sun-sin) that allowed the Korean navy to defeat the Japanese). For a UB, maybe something that represents Korean scientific achievements (like Cheomseongdae (observatory)), or something that would make cities on hills even stronger (to represent the mountain fortresses here). Those are just some rough ideas, though.
As far as the UA goes, hmm... either something that deals with culture or science, I would think. I'm not sure I have a complete enough understanding of the workings of UAs to propose anything balanced yet, though.
Heh, I guess I didn't really contribute anything specific there. Just thinking aloud.
dagriggstar
King
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Long post warning. I'm sorry.
Well, I think they cost upkeep anyway. This strikes me as an extremely modern feature of Korean culture as well (and isn't really something instantly recognizable, especially considering the historical importance of the French education system and Indian education system, which are ignored in the game).
Absolutely. This is usually why I post my ideas. I know they're extremely flawed and need feedback.
The problem is picking the exact amount to scale it up. Cannons are 26, Artillery is 32 (I feel going from 26 to 30 isn't very dramatic, while going to 32 is overly dramatic). Then again, Artillery does have more range and, since this wouldn't be against cities, maybe it would balance out.
BTW, the Spike TV show Deadliest Warrior tested the Chinese equivalent called the nest of bees (I understand Myth Busters tested a Hwach'a, but I haven't been able to see the episode). The thing looked really, really impressive. But, interestingly, each arrow seemed to swerve around their enemy and no one was scathed (which would probably just be a coincidence). I do agree that it was an anti-infantry weapon.
Wikipedia seems to disagree with you (yeah, wikipedia, but the article seems trustworthy). Apparently Japan didn't really have naval batteries, which could be what you're thinking of.
I wasn't specifically going for the Joseon period, things just seemed to coincidentally go that way. I chose two UUs for a couple reasons. One, I had suggested a lot of UU/UB pairs and was getting bored recommending them. Two, I felt that one of Civ5's distinctive features is the possibility of 2 UUs so I tried to pick them when possible. I felt Firaxis basically chose which civs to give 2 UUs based on how much knowledge they had of them. This led, generally, to western civs getting 2 UUs and Eastern Civs (China, India, Siam) getting a UU and a UB. Japan was unique (because it's better in the west). I was trying to remove Japan's uniqueness and reduce accidental Eurocentrism this way.
But I do want to address the Cheomseongdae (which is a mouthful, btw). I do like it. Since it's the oldest observatory in the world, I wouldn't have it replace observatories (more like have it replace monuments and give science as well). Another suggestion would be the Seowon, which they used in Civ4. I like your idea better because it gives Korea more diversity than the Joseon period. Although Seowon is easier to pronounce
Overall, I think there are both merits to 2 UUs and a UU/UB system. I feel it's almost easier to think of the latter, though, so I try to suggest as many civs for 2 UUs as I can think of (provided the units are unique). It's not often I have enough knowledge of Asian units to be able to do that
That's OK, it's what I generally do. When I think of Korea, I have a habit of thinking "culture" as well, but that's so vague. Usually what I've been trying to do is think of some term, cultural characteristic, event, or idea that stands out as being truly belonging to that civ (if I can't, I fudge it, some are harder than others). Then I'll either try and think of an interesting game mechanic that broadly mirrors the idea (or at least you can convince someone who doesn't know about the term that it mirrors it) or, if it doesn't mirror the idea, generally reflects how you expect Korea to play.
For game mechanics (a name definitely helps narrow things down, but we'll leave that aside for now), we would have to think how Korea should play. While Japan and China seem very warlike, Korea seems geared towards a peaceful player. They have one UU that isn't effective at taking cities, but could decimate enemy units in the field (better for defense, it seems). They'll either have a peaceful scientific UB or a naval unit that is more suited for coastal defense than offense (can destroy enemy ships, but, once again, isn't better at bombarding cities). Now you've mentioned how they had to fight off a lot of invaders and you've mentioned how they had mountain forts. Both of these things could suggest a defensive Unique Ability. They also had ties to Confucianism and that bureaucratic system. I could see some kind of cultural thing as well (afterall, you can't just play peacefully, you need a possible victory condition).
So I think finding a fitting name for something Korean (either in a specific Korean thing or even an English name that would describe this characteristic in Korea) for either a defensive or scientific/cultural UA would be the next stage.
Well, I think they cost upkeep anyway. This strikes me as an extremely modern feature of Korean culture as well (and isn't really something instantly recognizable, especially considering the historical importance of the French education system and Indian education system, which are ignored in the game).
Absolutely. This is usually why I post my ideas. I know they're extremely flawed and need feedback.
The problem is picking the exact amount to scale it up. Cannons are 26, Artillery is 32 (I feel going from 26 to 30 isn't very dramatic, while going to 32 is overly dramatic). Then again, Artillery does have more range and, since this wouldn't be against cities, maybe it would balance out.
BTW, the Spike TV show Deadliest Warrior tested the Chinese equivalent called the nest of bees (I understand Myth Busters tested a Hwach'a, but I haven't been able to see the episode). The thing looked really, really impressive. But, interestingly, each arrow seemed to swerve around their enemy and no one was scathed (which would probably just be a coincidence). I do agree that it was an anti-infantry weapon.
Wikipedia seems to disagree with you (yeah, wikipedia, but the article seems trustworthy). Apparently Japan didn't really have naval batteries, which could be what you're thinking of.
I wasn't specifically going for the Joseon period, things just seemed to coincidentally go that way. I chose two UUs for a couple reasons. One, I had suggested a lot of UU/UB pairs and was getting bored recommending them. Two, I felt that one of Civ5's distinctive features is the possibility of 2 UUs so I tried to pick them when possible. I felt Firaxis basically chose which civs to give 2 UUs based on how much knowledge they had of them. This led, generally, to western civs getting 2 UUs and Eastern Civs (China, India, Siam) getting a UU and a UB. Japan was unique (because it's better in the west). I was trying to remove Japan's uniqueness and reduce accidental Eurocentrism this way.
But I do want to address the Cheomseongdae (which is a mouthful, btw). I do like it. Since it's the oldest observatory in the world, I wouldn't have it replace observatories (more like have it replace monuments and give science as well). Another suggestion would be the Seowon, which they used in Civ4. I like your idea better because it gives Korea more diversity than the Joseon period. Although Seowon is easier to pronounce
Overall, I think there are both merits to 2 UUs and a UU/UB system. I feel it's almost easier to think of the latter, though, so I try to suggest as many civs for 2 UUs as I can think of (provided the units are unique). It's not often I have enough knowledge of Asian units to be able to do that
As far as the UA goes, hmm... either something that deals with culture or science, I would think. I'm not sure I have a complete enough understanding of the workings of UAs to propose anything balanced yet, though.
Heh, I guess I didn't really contribute anything specific there. Just thinking aloud.
That's OK, it's what I generally do. When I think of Korea, I have a habit of thinking "culture" as well, but that's so vague. Usually what I've been trying to do is think of some term, cultural characteristic, event, or idea that stands out as being truly belonging to that civ (if I can't, I fudge it, some are harder than others). Then I'll either try and think of an interesting game mechanic that broadly mirrors the idea (or at least you can convince someone who doesn't know about the term that it mirrors it) or, if it doesn't mirror the idea, generally reflects how you expect Korea to play.
For game mechanics (a name definitely helps narrow things down, but we'll leave that aside for now), we would have to think how Korea should play. While Japan and China seem very warlike, Korea seems geared towards a peaceful player. They have one UU that isn't effective at taking cities, but could decimate enemy units in the field (better for defense, it seems). They'll either have a peaceful scientific UB or a naval unit that is more suited for coastal defense than offense (can destroy enemy ships, but, once again, isn't better at bombarding cities). Now you've mentioned how they had to fight off a lot of invaders and you've mentioned how they had mountain forts. Both of these things could suggest a defensive Unique Ability. They also had ties to Confucianism and that bureaucratic system. I could see some kind of cultural thing as well (afterall, you can't just play peacefully, you need a possible victory condition).
So I think finding a fitting name for something Korean (either in a specific Korean thing or even an English name that would describe this characteristic in Korea) for either a defensive or scientific/cultural UA would be the next stage.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
That's a very good point about units being covered. Then again, Crossbows seem to have two units there as well. Definitely would have to be creative to fit something in (maybe something not stat related, per se).
Their UB is quite clear. The Arsenal was a distinctive part of Venice and is what gave them their naval edge. While making "Arsenals" plural in the sense of each city getting one isn't entirely historical, it's close enough.
Their UB is quite clear. The Arsenal was a distinctive part of Venice and is what gave them their naval edge. While making "Arsenals" plural in the sense of each city getting one isn't entirely historical, it's close enough.
Yeah, it's fine for Civ purposes. You could easily have 20+ Cothons going in CIV.
dagriggstar
King
On Korea - if they have two UU's (Hwacha and Turtle Ship) that are both defensive and a super-economic UA they'll be pretty awesome. Can't invade them by land - get shot down from hwacha's. Can't invade from the sea - get owned by turtle ships.
+5 science per population point in 3 largest cities. Goal is to win space race.
+5 science per population point in 3 largest cities. Goal is to win space race.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I like the idea (maybe modified slightly for balancing), but I still feel there would need to be a cool name to go with it. "Education Fever" could somewhat work (although it seems more modern than overall), but I feel India has the same education fever these days. Then again, China has "population growth" as well (and it's not a particularly Indian term). It's a good working idea, nonetheless.
EDIT: A google search of "education fever" seems to turn up overwhelmingly results about Korea. In the context of "population growth" being India's UA, I think I've been sold on making it Korea's. It also doesn't seem to be entirely modern, but goes back to the Choson period. Even during Japanese colonial rule (where education was restricted), they developed practices that apparently strengthened the modern Korean school system. Ideally, I'd want to change the effect to something that would work with a large empire, a small empire, or even a one city challenge (so no "Top 3 Cities"). How about doubling the effect of science specialists and an increased effect of science buildings. That way it wouldn't be an entirely passive effect (you still have to assign the specialists and build the buildings), but it could give quite a powerful result (I'm assuming) overall.
EDIT: A google search of "education fever" seems to turn up overwhelmingly results about Korea. In the context of "population growth" being India's UA, I think I've been sold on making it Korea's. It also doesn't seem to be entirely modern, but goes back to the Choson period. Even during Japanese colonial rule (where education was restricted), they developed practices that apparently strengthened the modern Korean school system. Ideally, I'd want to change the effect to something that would work with a large empire, a small empire, or even a one city challenge (so no "Top 3 Cities"). How about doubling the effect of science specialists and an increased effect of science buildings. That way it wouldn't be an entirely passive effect (you still have to assign the specialists and build the buildings), but it could give quite a powerful result (I'm assuming) overall.
Suho1004
Warlord
What if we just had the bonus against troops in open areas? The hwacha wouldn't be nearly as effective against troops sheltering in forests or hills. But then I begin to wonder if that would be too much of a gimp. I'm not up on the latest stats and combat calculations to do the numbers on this.
I saw the Mythbusters episode, and it was pretty cool. They missed their target, but there was a pretty good grouping of arrows (which would be exploding, mind you), and if there had been a lot of hwacha and a lot of enemy troops (as in a typical combat situation), the effect would probably have been pretty devastating, at the very least in terms of moral, if not casualties.
You can actually watch the end of the episode on YouTube, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM2NcPwsngU
Hmm, yeah, looks like I was a bit off there. I must admit that I was going more on popular perception of the turtle ship in Korea than on actual historical research.
But I do want to address the Cheomseongdae (which is a mouthful, btw). I do like it. Since it's the oldest observatory in the world, I wouldn't have it replace observatories (more like have it replace monuments and give science as well). Another suggestion would be the Seowon, which they used in Civ4. I like your idea better because it gives Korea more diversity than the Joseon period. Although Seowon is easier to pronounce
But it's just one more syllable than seowon!
I do like the seowon in Civ4, and think it's a good fit for Korea, but I was thinking of something different. That's an interesting idea to have Cheomseongdae replace the monument, but I don't know if it goes quite that far back--after all, it was built in the seventh century, whereas monuments are the first building available to be built. (Also, I don't know if it is the oldest observatory in the world. It is the oldest surviving observatory in Asia, though.)As for the "education fever" UA, I like the idea in general, and I think increasing the effect of science specialists would be pretty powerful (and pretty neat). But I definitely don't like the name. For however much history the concept may seem to have in Korea (I could go into more detail here, but suffice it to say that the idea of education being a universal road to success is in fact a modern concept--during the Joseon period, opportunities for education (and the accompanying success) were limited to upper class men), the term "education fever" is a very modern one, and isn't an entirely positive concept. This is true especially when seen by outsiders, but more and more Koreans are coming to see this as a negative as well.
There's a PSA that's been playing on television here recently, and the narration goes as follows:
"Parents tell (their children) to look far, school parents tell (their children) to only look ahead. Parents tell (their children) to go with (others), school parents tell (their children) to go ahead. Parents tell (their children) to dream, school parents don't give (them) the time to dream. Are you a parent? Are you a school parent? Returning to the image of a true parent is the beginning of true education."
"School parent," of course, is a very common term here in Korea. Once your children enter school, you are no longer just a parent, you are a school parent. This PSA is a bit simplistic, of course, because "education fever" is not a one-way street but a vicious cycle. Parents can't just decide to stop being "school parents" because, with the way the system is set up, there is the very real fear that their children will be left behind. The sort of change that the PSA espouses can only happen slowly.
So, I guess that got a little long, but I really don't like the term "education fever." It conjures up too many negative images and doesn't really seem to fit with the overall positive tone that Civ 5 seems to be going for. Of course, this is all speculation, but hopefully if Korea is considered in an expansion Firaxis will take this into account.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Well, we're trying to narrow down the UA first. I'll probably recompile in a second. These are two tentative versions.
Civ: Korea
Leader: Sejong
Unique Unit: Hwach'a - replaces cannon. Bombard 26, +25% bombard against units not in cities
Unique Unit: Turtle - replaces Caravel. Significantly increased strength, but the bombard remains the same (assuming we have up to date stats for naval units, I said strength of 20, bombard of 7).
Unique Ability: Education Fever - Doubles effect of science specialists and increases base effect of science buildings.
Note: Other option, instead of the Turtle:
Unique Building: Cheomseongdae - science building of some sort. Either replaces Observatory or replaces some other building (maybe a monument) but boosts science as well.
We're still trying to hammer out the UA details. I basically feel I need a Korean expert who has played Civ for a long time to suddenly discover this thread and put us all to shame.
Civ: Korea
Leader: Sejong
Unique Unit: Hwach'a - replaces cannon. Bombard 26, +25% bombard against units not in cities
Unique Unit: Turtle - replaces Caravel. Significantly increased strength, but the bombard remains the same (assuming we have up to date stats for naval units, I said strength of 20, bombard of 7).
Unique Ability: Education Fever - Doubles effect of science specialists and increases base effect of science buildings.
Note: Other option, instead of the Turtle:
Unique Building: Cheomseongdae - science building of some sort. Either replaces Observatory or replaces some other building (maybe a monument) but boosts science as well.
We're still trying to hammer out the UA details. I basically feel I need a Korean expert who has played Civ for a long time to suddenly discover this thread and put us all to shame.
Suho1004
Warlord
I don't know about the "Korean expert" part so much. I think we just need someone who is really good at coming up with UAs, even if they only have a basic knowledge of Korea. I'm fairly knowledgeable about Korea (and I've even been playing Civ since Civ 1!), I just suck at thinking up UAs.
I like your current idea, but can we please not call it "Education Fever"? I realize, of course, that you can call it whatever you want, but in my last post I thought I outlined a pretty good argument against that term. Unfortunately, I don't have an alternative at the moment. If there wasn't already a social policy called "meritocracy," I'd probably want to call it that, because that is what the civil service examination system was supposed to be.
[Edit: About the hwacha... yeah, it's a fine line between being cool and being overpowered. So maybe a bonus against melee units only?]
dagriggstar
King
Incase anyone hasn't figured it out yet - the idea behind my UA was a big benefit for a small number of cities - since Korean empires have never really been large, I don't feel its entirely a good idea to give them a bonus that increases the more cities they have.
I had a small civ gunning for a space race (science) victory in mind.
Bigger empire = more specialists = bigger bonus...
I had a small civ gunning for a space race (science) victory in mind.
Bigger empire = more specialists = bigger bonus...
Can I just say that you people are all amazing. The level of detail you put into thinking these things out puts me to shame. Bravo, bravo. Regarding the decision between Turtle and Cheomseongdae, I think a Turtle would be much better. They were a core component in Korea's naval forces while in power, and the Koreans would have a massive bonus in science with the UB/UA combo.
I must agree that Korea shouldn't get science bonuses from a UB and a UA.
Although science flourished during the reign of King Sejong (the rain gauge being a notable invention) , Korea stagnated badly after that mainly in part due to Neo-Confucianism. The parasitic upper class liked things the way they were and resisted change. There was also a reason why Korea was called the Hermit Kingdom. Shutting themselves off from the rest of the world except China did themselves no good in that regard. They relied on China for science more than anything.
South Korea's scientific prowess has only been a very recent thing and it has been as much innovation (improving existing products) as invention.
I would think Korea's UA should revolve around its cultural heritage. Staying relatively independent as it did being "a minnow between two whales" is quite an accomplishment. Some sort of cultural bonus plus a heavy penalty (say triple unhappiness) for any civilization conquering a Korean city sounds appropriate.
I am no means an expert but I did live in South Korea for nearly six years, have some knowledge of the language and have studied some Korean history.
Finally, King Sejong would also be an appropriate leader in my opinion.
Although science flourished during the reign of King Sejong (the rain gauge being a notable invention) , Korea stagnated badly after that mainly in part due to Neo-Confucianism. The parasitic upper class liked things the way they were and resisted change. There was also a reason why Korea was called the Hermit Kingdom. Shutting themselves off from the rest of the world except China did themselves no good in that regard. They relied on China for science more than anything.
South Korea's scientific prowess has only been a very recent thing and it has been as much innovation (improving existing products) as invention.
I would think Korea's UA should revolve around its cultural heritage. Staying relatively independent as it did being "a minnow between two whales" is quite an accomplishment. Some sort of cultural bonus plus a heavy penalty (say triple unhappiness) for any civilization conquering a Korean city sounds appropriate.
I am no means an expert but I did live in South Korea for nearly six years, have some knowledge of the language and have studied some Korean history.
Finally, King Sejong would also be an appropriate leader in my opinion.
snipperrabbit!!
Deity
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Korea
Leader: Sejong
Unique Unit : Hwach'a - replaces cannon. +25% ranged strength against units in OPEN
Unique Unit : P'anokseon - replaces Frigate. -2 strength, +2 ranged strength, unique promotion Turtle ship available (+50% damage)
Unique Building : Pansori - replaces Opera House. -1 unhappiness
Unique Ability:
Hwarang - +25% Science & +50% Culture in Capital.
+50% Science & +50% Culture toward SocPol in all cities during a GA.
Better GG (taken from Chinese UA in exchange of something else)
Leader: Sejong
Unique Unit : Hwach'a - replaces cannon. +25% ranged strength against units in OPEN
Unique Unit : P'anokseon - replaces Frigate. -2 strength, +2 ranged strength, unique promotion Turtle ship available (+50% damage)
Unique Building : Pansori - replaces Opera House. -1 unhappiness
Unique Ability:
Hwarang - +25% Science & +50% Culture in Capital.
+50% Science & +50% Culture toward SocPol in all cities during a GA.
Better GG (taken from Chinese UA in exchange of something else)
From what I have heard, the science is speeded up a bit. What I really like is game where science advances slowly and you get to do more at each era...
So.. I would wish for a more slow game speed - not one where buildings and units are equally more expensive so that everything just slows down.. but a longer game which stretches due to slow research.
So.. I would wish for a more slow game speed - not one where buildings and units are equally more expensive so that everything just slows down.. but a longer game which stretches due to slow research.
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