The Classic Maya 2016-10-05

[The Last Conformist]

Just posting to let you know you've got a sick sense of humour. I loaded up and have gotten a fair few turns into a Tonina game and I really don't see how I'm ever going to achieve a Cultural Victory. Like I say, sick sense of humour.

I believe it says something about Toniná being tough in the OP.

That said, it's not supposed to be impossible to win with these guys, so maybe I should be boosting them.

What level are you playing on, anyway? If you can't win as Toniná on Sid, it just proves you're a mere mortal like the rest of us.

EDIT: Some notes,

~ You've got a problem with the language and grammar in the opening info screen (first screen to open on the scen loading). Happy to discuss reshaping it with you, your other write up is great.

Contact me on MSN about it.

~ It's still quite apparent that many of the familiar epic game wonders (small and great) are simply reclothed and renamed, yet with the same functions. It would be more involving and convincingly different if you customised them a bit more. Doesn't mean the game isn't enjoyable, I've had a few cool games with previous versions of this scen.

There's only so many things you can do with wonders. Do you have any suggestions for changes?

One wonder I was thinking to change, but forgot in all the graphics juggling, is the Royal Trade Network, which is really pretty lame in its current incarnation. I suppose making it put Trading Posts everywhere would be too strong ...

~ Have you thought about a trade victory of sorts? Would that be appropriate?

You mean a spacerace à la Mughals or TAM? No, I don't think that would be appropriate.

~ The interface art on the diplomacy is !!!AMAZING!!!

Credit for that goes to Traianus.

~ The subtle growth in stats values works well but is a little dull for my liking. Perhaps some more funky units with funky abilities would liven it up for fussy gits like me.

I've got nothing against funky units per se, but it's hard coming up with ones that don't a) screw the AI and b) throw realism out of the window.

Hidden Nationality Raiders were tried at one point, but trust me, you don't want 'em back!

Tangentially, I've always found the Rocket Walas one of the weak points of the Mughals scen - the AI just has no clue on how to deal with stacks of them.

 

[Rambuchan]

Here's a report, can't remember how many turns in I got but it's between 35 and 60 turns:

Tonina
Level: Regent (usually monarch)
Aims: Cultural Victory, if not that, survival would be just fine.

So I started with building lots of scouts and sending them to the farthest reaches of the land. I met everyone as quickly as I could and soon established embassies.

This was all while researching Corvee, which I always go for first when playing this scen, for the workers. As soon as I got this I started knocking out workers and mining so I could pump out militia defenders more quickly.

Took me ages to get round to churning out a settler but I did it and my first city was built in between the gems, on the road to Mexico.

Now, as I was going for cultural, I hit the Stoneworking and Architecture before anyone else and got them. So my altars were built prior to anyone else's. However, it seems that the other civs went off towards Script and got their scribal schools built. Nevertheless, I'm still in contention culture-wise, even if I did flog a whole load of people to death rushing those altars and temples. My capital was just behind Mexico's main city in culture but then Caracol built the Trade Network and have shot their capital into the cultural lead.

I bought Trade off the miniscule Copan (for about 100gp and gems) whilst doing this but have otherwise researched myself. Now I've got the option of switching to a Divine Monarchy, but I've got that waiting until I finish the small wonder from the Script tech in my capital.

I've now expanded a fair bit. On the wrong machine to offer screenies. Basically I've created a nice ring around my two heartland cities, with a focus on the bonus and lux resources. It's looking good and I'm rising up from bottom of the power graph to third from bottom, woot! But all around me I have Piedras Negras and Palenque expanding like a nappy rash on a baby's thigh in high summer.

I have a base of about 5 well functioning cities, with some up and coming / corrupt ones out east and west. The original two, the gems city, one to the north east on the hills with game and tobacco (buffer against Pal & Pied Neg), one to the south west of the capital by the gold (for commerce). I've got a new round of settlers coing out and I intend to expand to the south, seeing as my two neighbours have filled up the northern reaches pretty much.

Now, I have had two sources of gems hooked up with the intention of trading for techs or alliances. Others want them. So I've found myself in some wars (which have been successful) when I rejected demands for my prestigious gems. First was against Tikal, who are now running away with things. As they were so far away, I just waited for them to come and slayed their warriors with mine. Next was Mexico, whose demands I rejected also. They lost their city furthest on the east to me and I had destroyed all their roads well before that point. Now I've got Piedras Negras who have just declared war on me for the same reason. They've had the Sajals in their military for much longer than I have (owing to cultural pursuits) so it could be interesting. I'm well defended, so it should just be a matter of where they wander, if I'm foolish enough to waste my troops on their Sajals and whether or not they go on a pillaging spree (which could hurt).

 

[The Last Conformist]

Sounds like you're doing pretty well. Taking Tuxtla is a good move, because it lets you control the whole of the Valley of Chiapas, gives you an extra lux, and keeps the Mexicans at arms length.

Piedras Negras can be a fearful adversary, but before they hit the later military techs, they should be hard pressed to shift Sajals fortified on hills.

A useful tip for next time; the AI close to invariably researches Corvée first, so starting with Trade or Stoneworking can set you up for a nice trade.

 

[Rambuchan]

Sounds like you're doing pretty well. Taking Tuxtla is a good move, because it lets you control the whole of the Valley of Chiapas, gives you an extra lux, and keeps the Mexicans at arms length.

Sweet. I knew that'd be a good idea!

Piedras Negras can be a fearful adversary, but before they hit the later military techs, they should be hard pressed to shift Sajals fortified on hills.

Yeah, I'm hoping I can front a few in choice positions for them to slaughter themselves on. I'm no teven going to try hitting their cities.

A useful tip for next time; the AI close to invariably researches Corvée first, so starting with Trade or Stoneworking can set you up for a nice trade.

:suicide: Now you tell me!

Forgot to mention, I'm researching Blood Cult, so that should help with the culture with enlaved workers being sacrificed.

 

[The Last Conformist]

If you're sneaky, you'll keep all the slaves till you've got up a Pyramid in Toniná, and so double the culture value of the sacrifices. Meanwhile, keep the wretches working.

 

[William GBTW]

Smart one!

 

[Rambuchan]

Well I didn't get to capture many slaves. This was a very defensive war and I found that not a great deal happened. They (PNeg) advanced, I covered my resources with the Sajals. They retreated or went on by. No cities were sieged. So I simply expanded all the way south and into the gaps west. It felt like good growth, especialy as I've got some nicely productive cities in my core circle and new resources and luxs hooked up. However, everyone else is doing the same, but much much better than poor old Tonina. Even my climbing up the cultural ladder was undone by someone who I can't remember out east building the Trade Network (which I never had a chance of building before them). Despite all this I'm having fun but I doubt I'll be able to report a victory as desired. I might get a successful war going on Palenque or Pied Neg but there will always be bigger fish in this sea, namely Tikal!

 

[Rambuchan]

Other comments I haven't made yet.

Bloody good job on the tech icons. They are all (well the ones that you've not chosen gamey Firaxis icons for) are all beautiful. This scenario's icon spread is right up my street. You've got beautiful, historically accurate and (fairly) consistent pedia and wonder icon art going on and I commend that highly. Traianus' diplomacy art is also a complete knock out in this scen. I've since seen the other diplo art from that stable and this Mayan one truly is one of the most wonderful pieces of modding art I've seen in a while. Really something!

 

[The Last Conformist]

Thanks for the report.

It's a rare day either Calakmul or Caracol likes Tikal, so you might get Jasaw Chan cut down to size by some deft diplomacy, without having to commit yourself to a big war.

Re: tech icons, many of them are done by Quinzy and Traianus (see credits file), who've been a big boon to this scen graphically. Too bad you don't like the Firaxian ones. I might replace them one day for consistency's sake, but it's not a priority. Needless to say, the chances go up if you find some good graphics to work from ...

 

[Rambuchan]

Dude, do you really think I'd send my poxy forces out east?

I haven't been hooking up those new luxs for nothing, you know! Still won't win me the game though, because they'll get more VPs bashing each other.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Dude, do you really think I'd send my poxy forces out east?

No need - just declare war on the red guys, and they'll happily trek over to Chiapas to be killed.

 

[Rambuchan]

There is always that option

 

[Traianus]

@ Ram. TLC is being modest there. I'm prtty good at cut n' paste but it was his direction that brought the diplo screen to it's fin. Because of that, it's probably the best thing I've ever done here!

 

[Rambuchan]

Agreed, he does a good job of 'working with the talent'.

 

[The Last Conformist]

mrtn found a number of minor graphical glitches. Once these are fixed, I'll finalize the thing if nobody finds any other error or problems.

 

[The Last Conformist]

v1.0 posted!!!

DL from the OP. It's substantially the same as the last betas, but all graphics glitches, 'pedia errors, etc, should be cleaned up.

 

[Plotinus]

Huzzah!

I'm looking forward to playing the "official" version of this now. I just have to find some kind of time to do it in...

 

[The Last Conformist]

Sleep is for the weak.

 

[conquer_dude]

Woah I can't believe I just saw this thread. Is there something wrong with me?

Anyways, great scenerio!

 

[Mentat]

Hmm, its weird, though I kinda like the scenario, I don't seemt to have much luck at playing it. Maybe its connected with playing the Tonina. I developed nicely, even with the starting disadvantage of Tonina and managed to build the Trade Wonder. Then I completely kept out of wars, since its the only way to spread at the same pace as the others do. I didn't manage to build another Great Wonder until the Great Pyramid. After that I started leading in science, and managed to develope a few cities quite well. But before I could unleash my power an dare to attack one of the others, I get the message that the game is over in a few turns. But at best I will end in 3rd, more likely in 4th position regarding VP, and quite everything else. Only my capitol city is quite the #1, since both wonders are located there.

From my point, the pace of the game is just too quick. Whenever you have finished one Tech, you won't be able to build the untis related to it, before you have discovered or traded for the next tech, featuring better units. And before you can really start to think about building up either an army, or a decent cultural environment, the game is over ....

Maybe there are still too many locations to build cities, ....
Maybe Techresearch is too quick, ...
Maybe there should be a quite few more turns, ...

I can't tell, but something is weird with the scenario, eventhough its really beautiful and well done.