I agree, managing wealth should be a challenge (honestly if you build enough cottages early in the game it's not that hard) and should be the major difficulty in maintaining a large empire or especially a large army. Historically very few powers maintained large standing armies because it would have bankrupted them.
I have only a couple main requests:
-Release the DLL source code
-Rename the TAM art files (such as unit_resource_atlas.dds) so they don't interfere with the default game's art files. I tried to add in some buildings from vanilla Civ, such as banks, but had trouble accessing the art because the files were named exactly the same.
These two changes would make it unbelievably easier to mod TAM.
I concur wholeheartedly. I would love it if the DLL source files could be made available so I can make my own modifications. (larger city radius and unrestricted colonies spring instantly to mind)
As a reminder guys, not everything in TAM is supposed to be "balanced." Thamis, the visionary director and creator of TAM, wanted this to resemble historical reality more closely. Yes, the Romans should be more powerful than most of the other factions, because historically they had one of the greatest empires the world has ever seen. I agree with him on this subject to a large extent.
Exactly, a balanced game is a boring game. It should be a genuinely different experience playing as different civilizations. Some should present a much greater challenge than others. Personally I often find the best games are when my civilization is struggling for it's very survival rather than when I have to manage the minutia of a sprawling empire with no real competitors.
Historical accuracy is what makes TAM so much better than normal Civ.
With that in mind I thing land trade should be included as it really was a big part of the eastern Mediterranean. Only in Hellenic and Imperial times did sea powers really rival the east in wealth. Even then the eastern provinces were always considered the richest.
You are saying that having 13 of the 16 (I conquered the other 2) Civilizations so strapped for cash at the end of the game that all but two of them run wealth in 80 % of their cities and half of the Civ's must disband troops at the end of the game with a slider at 0% is a good game and a challenge.
I just disagree. I don't think that Civ's that grow and expand always go bankrupt and I don't think that is historically accurate.
I also think the game isn't good if I play Babylon or Persia on a high level I must lose on, say, Emperor; if I expand at all I will be crushed economically and if I don't I'll be crushed militarily. Please don't tell me I'm not a good player and I don't know how to empire build -- I can win if I use the 'Breunor strategy' I've layed out above which is overpowered. But the game does not allow for a land power to win in any traditional way.
Anyway, if all of you guys like the game the way it is, fine, I'll just play another Mod. I think saying that the Persians or the Babylonains can't be a great empire and can't really win without exploit strategies also isn't realistic.
One thing I noticed is that it's very hard to expand early on (playing 2nd larger map on Marathon with Noble diff), since I seems to keep running out of cash/income. Usually it's become either I get more land, or I build more army, to compete with AI. I've seen a landlock AI (Babylon) expand his empire and eating up his neighbors pretty fast, as well as being a leader of science. Not sure how the AI does that.
But one point of the game, once I am able to build those money building such as grocer, etc, I am starting to be able to build larger army and expand faster, and them eating up neighbors to keep up with the leading AI. I never utilize merchant vassal though, since I rarely have open border with any coastal civ, and seemingly in constant warfare with any of my neighbors.
As I'm lazy I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone already said it : two flavor units is not enougth, it would be really kewl if we had more. Naked fanatics for celts (my ancestors went naked in battle, and I'm proud of it !), sacred band cav and inf for carthago, phalanx for greece to replace all their heavy inf line...etc, I think history would give you plenty of stuff to implement.
As said in the posts above, solving the economical problem is much needed.
TAM is the only MOD i play and since I've been playing this since CIV3 I think its time for me to request a more political depth in this modified game. I have no ideas thought, sorry hehe.
One thing that annoys me is that countries that have borders to the great desert always strugle with the barbarians. Isnt it possible to give those countries some unique building that will prevent the barbarians to enter the borders? Or maybe some extra bonus to the military units.
On the shrines issue... Why not have a cap (+20 gold, or something like that) for all shrines except the christian one? That way christianity will have an incentive for aggressive expansion and there will still be a modest economic bonus for those players that get to build other shrines. Or even make those capped shrines obsolete (not all of them tho, I guess it would depend on the religion)
1. The text for AI_DIPLO_FIRST_CONTACT_LEADER_TEUTA_1 is missing in TAM_DiplomacyText.xml. It looks like there was a plan to replace LEADER_TEUTA with LEADER_GJERGJ_KASTRIOTI ?!?
2. Python/Entrypoints/CvRandomEventsInterface.py should be included and updated (or events XML updated), otherwise you get Python exceptions like in the screenshot below:
The vermin event checks for the non-exsiting civic CIVIC_MERCANTILISM
Hello,
Here is my feedback with TAM 0.82 BTS 3.13/3.17, on Prince level.
First, it is nice to see the AI cope much better economically. With TAM 1.99/2.00, civs like Gaul were always "ruined" quickly on the large map.
I never saw the AI using "wealth", but I never tried the huge map. The only problem is city placement, really horrible. But that's not TAM fault, of course !
But there are still problems :
- The AI wastes its commerce on espionage. Using debug mode, I saw a civ like Carthage at turn 680 using 40% gold, 20% espionage ! No wonder I am always ahead in techs !
- The AI likes to harass the player with the constant 'go to war/stop trading with/adopt my civic' demands. With an AI like Caesar, I have quickly a -15 penalty just for not cancelling trades !
- WW goes high quickly, and cannot be lowered enough with civics/buildings. I had to stop several longs wars, because WW was not bearable anymore, even with 40% culture.
- The AI ignores very useful techs like Exploration, The Market, Irrigation, and likes to rush military techs like Siege Warfare. The AI usually research Tactics and Alliances BEFORE The Market ! No wonder civs crash, and never build the market wonders.
- Cities are just too easy to take. Sieges should be a long, painful and costly process, but with uber siege engines, weak defenses and collateral damage, it is just a cakewalk. The AI wipes entire civs off the map with only Chariots/Chariots Archers/Horse Archers. Something wrong here.
So here are the changes (and my suggestions) I made :
Spoiler:
* Misc
- Removed global warming.
- Increased max national wonders per city to 4.
- Increased the max fortify turns from 5 to 8. (40% now)
- Deleted the corporations.
* Civs
- Removed Hittites UB. (forge not working)
- Lowered the memory decays for MEMORY_REJECTED_DEMAND, DENIED_CIVIC, DENIED_JOIN_WAR, DENIED_STOP_TRADING.
Now the AI "forgets" quickly, but it is still very rare to have a "friendly" civ.
- Decreased the "iEspionageWeight" to 5.
Now the AI don't use Espionage anymore, and research much quicker.
*Civics
- Changed cost (High to Medium) for : EMPIRE, DEMOCRACY, PATRONAGE
- Changed cost (Medium to Low) for : DESPOTISM, HEREDITARY_RULE, REPUBLIC, LEVY, CLASS_LEVY
Without these changes, most civics (like Levy/Class Levy) are too expensive, and useless.
- DEMOCRACY : removed the happiness penalty.
- CULT_OF_NATURE : removed the forest happiness bonus, and increased the state religion bonus from 10% to 20%.
This civ is too unfair for civs with no forests like Egypt/Lydia.
- RURAL_MILITIA : WW decreased from +50% to +35%.
- LEVY : WW decreased from +35% to +25%.
- CLASS_LEVY : WW decreased from +20% to +10%.
- CONSCRIPTION : WW decreased from +10% to none.
- PROFESSIONAL_ARMY : WW from none to -25%.
*HandicapsInfos
- Lowered inflation for the player (95 to 65), and increased inflation for the AI. (50 to 60)
Inflation is too high in the endgame for the player. On the large map at turn 647, my inflation was 158% !
- Lowered the AI discount on units upgrade : from 75% to 20%.
- Increased iBarbarianDefenders from 3 to 4.
*Buildings
- Made ARISTO_THEATRE/HYPOCRAT_OATH National Wonders.
- Disabled corporations. (iMaxGlobalInstances 1 to 0)
- COURTHOUSE : -25% WW to -50% WW.
- PUBLIC_COURT/BUILDING_KUVEND : maintenance -25% to -30%.
- PALISSADES/CELTIC_DUN : defense increased from 10% to 30%.
- WALLS/MURUS_DACICUS : 25%/40% to 50%/65%.
- FORTRESS : 50% to 80%.
- PALACE : decreased cost from 500 to 200, defense increased from 20% to 40%.
- AGORA : decreased cost from 500 to 200.
- Shrines : removed the +1 GPT per city income, replaced by a fixed +30% gold.
- Increased the survival conquest probability :
For most buildings from 0 to 50%, except Wonders (75%) and Lighthouse/Harbour/Aqueduct (100%). Economic and military buildings stay at 0.
After a few games, I find 50% is not enough.
*Tech tree
- CORPORATION : deleted
- WRITING, instead of EXPLORATION now allows Open Borders.
- URBANIZATION : now allows Palace, instead of REPUBLIC.
The Palace comes way too late for me.
- MOUNTED_COMBAT : now requires EXPLORATION.
- PHILOSOPHY : now gives +1 happiness, removed the free tech.
- CAVALRY : now comes after IRON_WORKING.
- REPUBLIC : now requires THE_MARKET.
- HOLY_BOOK : now gives +1 happiness
- BRIDGE_BUILDING : now comes after CROP_ROTATION, instead of SIEGE_WARFARE.
Now the AI is "forced" to research these useful techs !
- MILITARY_TRAINING : now requires CODE_OF_LAWS, instead of EDUCATION.
- SIEGE_WARFARE : now requires EDUCATION.
I hate it when the AI beelines this tech, having not researched Heroism yet !
*Units
- Scout : starts with Sentry promotion now.
Now I don't lose all the scouts I build. They should not be "surprised" by anybody. They are SCOUTS !!
And very useful when you play Egypt/Carthage.
- Spies : Increased cost from 40 to 60.
I tried upping the cost to 200, but the stupid AI likes to waste 25-30 turns building his beloved spies in the early game...
- ARMORED_SLINGER : ChanceFirstStrikes decreased from 4 to 2.
- JAVELINEER/THRACE_PELTAST/PELTAST : increased the max damage from 80 to 100.
- ARMORED_JAVELINEER/SAUNION_JAVELINEER/NUBIAN_MERC : increased the max damage from 90 to 100.
Units that can't kill ? No thanks.
- BOWMAN : City Defense decreased from 75% to 50%.
- All Chariots/Chariot Archers/Cavalry : City Attack penalty increased from -25% to -75%, City Defense penalty decreased from -80% to -25%.
You can't take cities with these units... Now the AI correctly uses Axemen/Swordsmen to attack cities. (Unfortunately, sometimes the AI don't care about these penalties. In my last game, Vercingétorix suicided 87 Light Cavalry on my walls...)
- ELEPHANT/CARTHAGE_WAR_ELEPHANT : City Defense penalty decreased from -80% to -20%.
- PIKEMAN : Strength increased from 7 to 8, added +20% bonus against archery units, bonus against cavalry reduced from 50% to 40%.
- RAM/ASSYRIAN_RAM : bombard rate decreased from 5%/10% to 3%/5%.
- UNIT_CATAPULT/ROMAN_SIEGE : bombard rate decreased from 15% to 6%/8%. (Vanilla cannons are 20%)
CollateralDamageMaxUnits reduced from 4 to 3.
- FIRE_CATAPULT : CollateralDamageMaxUnits reduced from 10 to 6. CollateralDamageLimit reduced from 75 to 40.
Still too powerful.
- All ships : moves +2.
Now with these changes, I played 4 games (2 Large/2 East Med) : 2 space victories-2 space losses (first time I lose in CIV4 !). Things are easier on the economic side (a bit too easy on small/normal maps) but that helps the AI greatly.
The AI can afford big armies and still research at a good rate. For example, on the EastMed map, playing Myceans, Egypt had a 5-6 techs lead on me during all the game : I never saw that before !
I can have very long wars, and sieges last longer : even with 8-9 catapults, destroying walls take at least 3-4 turns.
My last problem is why the AI never uses Pageantry or Patronage civics in the late game.
Besides all these suggestions, I have a request : please include the BUG mod, or at least the most useful parts, like Civ4lerts.
I am sorry if this is a repeat request, but i would like the hero units to function much like great generals in that they may also be upgraded or become a military specialist.
Great mod. Lots of fun to play. Thanks for all your efforts everyone.
Here are a few ideas for the next patch....
* "Testudo" promotion for medium and heavy units that reduces collateral damage received by 50%. Requires "Combat I".
* Shrines should start a golden age rather than provide $1 per city with that religion.
* Arenas and Taverns should yield one more gold than what they have now (i.e. increase from +$2 to +$3).
* Civics should be changed to allow larger empires. In other words, the maintenance based on number of cities and the maintenance related to distance from capital should be drastically reduced, particularly for the later civics. The Romans, the Persians, the Parthians, and (briefly) the Greeks under Alexander the Great all had huge empires during the timeframe encompassed by TAM. The Carthaginians also had lots of territory. With the current settings, it is impossible for the Player to create an empire anywhere near those sizes. For example, I mean, come on, why does the so-called "Empire" civic increase maintenance cost related to the number of cities???
* Raise maintenance reduction of Public Court from 25% to say 33%.
* The Ilyrian ship unique unit should be hidden nationality to reflect that it is a pirate vessel.
* +1 movement rate for all ships except trade vessels
* Add Roman Corvus unique unit that is like a Trireme but with +1 strength and -2 moves
* Increase the shield cost of all trading ships (i.e. merchant vessel, Phoenician merchant, and trade barge) by at least 50%. Also reduce those ships' movement rates by 1. Coastal civs that get an open border agreement can simply rack up the cash to the point of unbalancing the game.
* Reduce forest defense value to 20% and dense forest defense value to 25%. How can a forest have a higher defense rating than a fortress?
* The ideas submitted previously by other posters are quite good.
Excellent suggestion! That new XML tag (bHiddenNationality) is still underused in most mods and fits piracy very nice as piracy has been state financed a lot in history (I'm thinking of 16th/17th century in particular though).
Hello there! First of all, kudos for making a mod that actually feels like a unique game
Would it be possible to implement vassalage in the mod or at least make it a choosable option? This would allow you to have a large empire without actually having to capture most of the AI's, often badly placed, cities.
Oh, and does anyone on these foums know how to activate vassalage in the 3.17 version of this mod ?
Hello there! First of all, kudos for making a mod that actually feels like a unique game
Would it be possible to implement vassalage in the mod or at least make it a choosable option? This would allow you to have a large empire without actually having to capture most of the AI's, often badly placed, cities.
Oh, and does anyone on these foums know how to activate vassalage in the 3.17 version of this mod ?
To have Vassal available upon discovery of say the Empire technology, go to the C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\TAM\Assets\XML\Technologies folder, open the Civ4TechInfos.xml file, search for "TECH_Empire", then go down approximately 35 lines and change the "0" to a "1" in this line
<bVassalTrading>1</bVassalTrading>
- WRITING, instead of EXPLORATION now allows Open Borders
but I disagree.
If problem is "I'm boxed by other civ borders" I say "Yes, it's ok". In the far ancient time each foreign military unit was always an enemy unit, so early in the game having no open borders sounds right for me.
Btw, giving to Scouts the "explore enemy terrain" ability could be a good solution to allow long range explorations, making them a more useful unit at the same time. In the early game Scout units walking on foreign land are acceptable, instead of warriors or javelineers.
Excellent suggestion! That new XML tag (bHiddenNationality) is still underused in most mods and fits piracy very nice as piracy has been state financed a lot in history (I'm thinking of 16th/17th century in particular though).
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