The Confederate Flag

[metalhead]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I thought I'd ask the OT community what they thought of the Stars and Bars. Quite a few controversies have arisen in state legislatures regarding the display of the Confederate flag as a part of their state flag. Many think that it is a symbol of the enslavement of those of African descent living in America, while others view it with reverance as a symbol of the basic freedoms of state's rights that their forefathers fought for in the American Civil War. It is to this day viewed as a symbol for those "rebels" among us who shun authority and wish to do what they please without government interference.

So the question I pose is: what do you think when you see someone displaying the Stars and Bars?

 

[Jeratain]

Originally posted by metalhead
So the question I pose is: what do you think when you see someone displaying the Stars and Bars?

I think: Wow, this guy must be a redneck.

What I believe is that it symbolizes both slavery and state's rights. I don't think it should be part of any state's flag.

Think of this. There is a symbol in the Indian culture (I forget which religion) that resembles the Nazi symbol. The Indian one symbolizes peace and well-being, but if it is seen on anything people get the wrong idea. Just recently there was a toy in Japan that was recalled because a symbol on it resembled the schwastika (I don't recall how to spell that correctly). The point here is that a symbol or image can greatly offend people, and the Confederate flag is a perfect example of it.

 

[napoleon526]

As an official Civil War nitpick, I must remind you that the term "Stars and Bars" refers to the Confederate national flag. This flag was flown over forts and ships.

This is what it looks like:

The one which is commonly known as the Confederate flag is the Confederate battle flag, which was carried by Confederate regiments. Originally, battle flags were based on the national flag, but in the fog of battle it could easily be mistaken for a Union flag. It was thus redesigned to this:

Now that my nitpicking is complete, I think that it's simply too offensive to too many people and should not be displayed on government property.

 

[CruddyLeper]

I've got an acquaintance who has a confederate battle flag in his living room. Why? "It's my home. I was born in Boston."

I know some real, genuine ignorant people, so he's welcome to it. A shame they don't all display such an obvious "I am an idiot" symbol.

 

[Johann MacLeod]

i always laugh at the irony, because where i live if they were waviing it about during the civil war they would've been shot. because the part of kentucky i live in was heavily union..lol

 

[metalhead]

Originally posted by napoleon526
As an official Civil War nitpick, I must remind you that the term "Stars and Bars" refers to the Confederate national flag. This flag was flown over forts and ships.

This is what it looks like:

The one which is commonly known as the Confederate flag is the Confederate battle flag, which was carried by Confederate regiments. Originally, battle flags were based on the national flag, but in the fog of battle it could easily be mistaken for a Union flag. It was thus redesigned to this:

Now that my nitpicking is complete, I think that it's simply too offensive to too many people and should not be displayed on government property.

Your nitpicking is noted, napoleon. Oh yeah!

But why should the Stars and Bars be offensive? After all, despite what anyone says, they weren't fighting for the right to enslave Africans, per se. South Carolina, and subsequently the rest of the Confederate States, seceded from the Union due to what they viewed as irreconcilable differences on the role of the federal government to dictate how individual states chose to rule themselves. It is on this basis that South Carolina chose to include the Stars and Bars in their state flag, and it is with this fact in mind that I ask why the Stars and Bars is so offensive in the first place.

I won't deny that the the rift between the abolitonist North and anti-abolitionist South played a major role in the beginning of the Civil War. But I firmly believe that the secession of the southern states had a much greater political ideal in mind than the right to enslave Africans.

 

[Johann MacLeod]

no, you can trace every reason the south claimed to slavery. i remeber going with my mom to one of her history classes and the professe said that people say the the civila war was about this this this and this, not so much about slavery but in actuality all of those reasons end up with slavery.

 

[metalhead]

Originally posted by Johann MacLeod
no, you can trace every reason the south claimed to slavery. i remeber going with my mom to one of her history classes and the professe said that people say the the civila war was about this this this and this, not so much about slavery but in actuality all of those reasons end up with slavery.

tsk tsk, Johann. There was an abolitionist movement for 40 years before the Civil War ever started - northerners had been beseeching southerners to stop the practice of slavery and emancipate slaves long before the Republican Abe Lincoln ever showed up and actually endorsed such a law. I'm not going to deny that slavery played a central role in what the southern states deemed as their right to self determination - but it was that self-determination, NOT slavery, that lead to the Civil War. Look into the Kansas-Nebraska conflicts, and listen to some real Civil War historians before concluding it was all about slavery, because there is undeniable evidence that slavery was NOT the deciding factor in the secession of the southern states.

 

[SunTzu]

the south didn't want to give up slavery, no slaves would wreck the souths economy, since whitey never worked on the farms in the south(and agriculture was the souths biggest industry) so no blacks(slaves) working, no southern economy. The South believed slavery was apart of their culture, and thats what they fought for, since everyone knows the North was wanting to get rid of slavery

 

[Greadius]

Its a symbol of slavery, that is how many people see it, and particularly, many people find it offensive.

Not to say it should be banned, but I think its important you understand that orginizations and individuals like the KKK have used it as a rallying symbol since the end of the civil war to endorse racism. The Civil War function of the flag is almost secondary and historic compared to its modern application and use in this century, which has only recently been described as 'Southern pride'.

If you really believe the flag stands for Southern pride, go up and deck every racists who flies and betrays the spirit of your flag. They've hijacked that symbol just like the Nazi's hijacked the swatstika and will forever more soil its use.

Originally posted by SunTzu
the south didn't want to give up slavery, no slaves would wreck the souths economy, since whitey never worked on the farms in the south(and agriculture was the souths biggest industry) so no blacks(slaves) working, no southern economy.

Actually, that is a myth. Only about 10-15% of Southerners owned slaves, and most of the people that worked on farms were poor whites. It was only large, wealth plantations that dominated the slavery business.

But you're right about the effects on the economy. There was a massive amount of starvation and poverty that resulted from the end of slavery, much of it going undocumented because blacks were the victims of it.

 

[VoodooAce]

Of course it should not be banned. This is America.

The Nazi flag is a symbol of many things, not just the holocaust. But when I see it, I see a symbol of millions of people murdered in cold blood.

When I see the Confederate flag, I see a symbol of slavery. And a place to urinate.

It is questionable and arguable whether one can call slavery THE direct cause of the war. While not THE cause, the issue itself was interwoven with practically every other issue.

Why did the South secede? Because an abolitionist was elected president, and they had said before hand that if an abolitionist was elected, there would be trouble. They knew an abolitionist in power would further complicate things in the other major issue of the time, states' rights....mainly the right of incoming states to choose for themselves whehter or not to be 'slave' states.

As Greadius allludes to above, the confederate flag was brought out of mothballs to counteract, or in answer to, the growing civil rights movement.

 

[metalhead]

Originally posted by VoodooAce
Of course it should not be banned. This is America.

The Nazi flag is a symbol of many things, not just the holocaust. But when I see it, I see a symbol of millions of people murdered in cold blood.

When I see the Confederate flag, I see a symbol of slavery. And a place to urinate.

It is questionable and arguable whether one can call slavery THE direct cause of the war. While not THE cause, the issue itself was interwoven with practically every other issue.

Why did the South secede? Because an abolitionist was elected president, and they had said before hand that if an abolitionist was elected, there would be trouble. They knew an abolitionist in power would further complicate things in the other major issue of the time, states' rights....mainly the right of incoming states to choose for themselves whehter or not to be 'slave' states.

As Greadius allludes to above, the confederate flag was brought out of mothballs to counteract, or in answer to, the growing civil rights movement.

To be historically correct, Lincoln said that if he could condone slavery to save the Union he would, and if he could abolish slavery to preserve the Union he would.

Say what you will in revisionist history about Honest Abe, but the fact remains, if keeping slavery would have preserved the Union, Lincoln would have done it.

The ONLY reason Abe gave the Emancipation Proclamation was to preserve the Union, and nothing we have learned about the Republican Honest Abe has suggested otherwise. Make no mistake, if keeping the institution of slavery would have kept the union together in Abe's eyes, he would have done it. The true genius of Abraham Lincoln lies in his recognition that keeping the institution of slavery would have divided the Union beyond repair.

 

[eyrei]

It is a symbol of the greatness of the USA that people are still allowed to fly a 'rebel' flag. Did anyone ever consider that this flag was made into an offensive symbol? Someone has said before more that the winner always writes the history.


[color=crimson[/b]Now, speaking as a moderator. This discussion will continue as long as people behave in a reasonable manner. I realize it is a touchy subject, but having had this discussion before with friends, I don't think it is an impossiblity. This is an interesting topic, but I expect everyone's comments to be free of insults and not used to simply irritate. [/color]

 

[wilbill]

Originally posted by metalhead
Look into the Kansas-Nebraska conflicts, and listen to some real Civil War historians before concluding it was all about slavery, because there is undeniable evidence that slavery was NOT the deciding factor in the secession of the southern states.

The Kansas conflict occurred for one reason - whether Kansas would enter the Union as a slave or a free state. The very terms used (at the time and by historians now) "slave state" and "free state" pretty well indicate what the division of the nation was about.
Sure "states' rights" and "freedom of determination" were central issues dividing the states, but there was only one "states' right" that could have caused a war - the right to own slaves.

 

[Jeratain]

Originally posted by eyrei
Did anyone ever consider that this flag was made into an offensive symbol?

As was the swatstika.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Jeratain
As was the swatstika.

I hope you can up with a better example than that. You do realize that quite a few countries allowed people to won slaves at this point in history? No worse atrocities were committed in the southern USA than in any other country that allowed this at some point. I contend the flag in question was made to represent slavery by the US government and the intellectuals who wanted to create a symbol to represent the foe they had just defeated. To some people (yes, they do exist...I have met those who would fly a rebel flag and not all of them are racist), it is a symbol of national pride.

 

[Stile]

I think the battle flag represents states' rights. I'm all for states' rights, but not when they tread on the rights of individuals. The 'greatest generation' was not just in their actions against civil rights. The flag should not be banned or forgotten, but I think it should be taken off the state flags by the legislatures that put them there. It's been a touchy subject down here in Georgia, and I believe as it stands now there will be a two part referendum that could bring back the battle flag to the state flag (which was removed a couple years ago). It's fairly prevalent on truck bumper stickers here. Where I was raised in Virginia, if you put the flag on your car, you better not park it in public or you would have the crap kicked out of your car. Fly it at your own risk. But why bother, fly old glory instead. Much more to be proud of there.

 

[Stapel]

I have a confederate (battle) flag in my sleeping room, along with a (50 stars) union one. This might be pretty strange for a European, but I like flags anyway and I think the amarican civil war and all what has to do with it, is one of the most intriguing stories in history.

What I'd like to add to the discussion:
-From the first signs of posible secession, the official reason has been 'more liberty for individual states'. Slavery never seemed to be an offcial reason.
-Lincoln didn't mind about slavery. It was abolsihid in 1863, not 1861. The conflict started with the possible entry of new 'free' states within the union. Not with the aboilishment of slavery.

quote:

Originally posted by metalhead
Look into the Kansas-Nebraska conflicts, and listen to some real Civil War historians before concluding it was all about slavery, because there is undeniable evidence that slavery was NOT the deciding factor in the secession of the southern states.

There were many factors. Slavery was most certainly not the only one. But stating that is was not the deciding factor? Many non-slavery factors are linked to the slavery factors.

Anyway: Nowadays, the confederate flag is a symbol of rebellion and freedom. Even blacks use it. It is also a memory to the many southern young soldiers who died in the battle field. For this reason I think it is appropiate to use it in on government buildings

 

[Phantom Lord]

This is indeed an interesting subject. I have to admit that as a german I was not aware that the confederate flag is considered such a strong symbol in the US. So far I thought it's a symbol of separatism, rebellion or "south rules" at best.

I never thought people in the US would compare it to Nazi symbols ...

 

[PantheraTigris2]

Lincoln was an avowed abolishionist, and this was widely known. His election into the Presidency of the United States is one of the key events that led to the chain reaction that would ultimately lead to the southern States seceding from the Union. They saw the writing on the wall. It was a bold move - and leave it to South Carolina (a bunch of firebrands- woHoo!) - to be the first to do it.

It wasn't completely about slavery - but that was a major part of it. States rights, commerce & trade laws were biased towards the nothern States, and the south (feeling they were getting screwed, and things were only going to get worse), could certainly have made a great living for themselves had the CSA (Confederate States of America) succeeded in winning their independence.

As for the flag... well, it's the Rebel flag. It means different things to different people. And a lot of southerners will tell you it's a part of their culture - and they'll "be damned before they let it be banned". Personally, even though I was born & raised in Memphis, I have no special place in my heart for this flag. To me, it's all a part of the past. Events which took place before any of my ancestors were living in the south. The flag symbolizes the spirit of rebellion - plain and simple.