The crucifixion

[puglover]

Bah,

Don't we all know by now that the story of Yeshua's crucifixion and resurrection is:
a. copied from pagan myths.
b. written down 40 years after the crucifixion.

a. Saying that Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection were stolen from pagan myths is like saying Harry Potter plagerized Lord of the Rings because it has a wizard in it.

b. We have enough contemporary manuscripts to know that the gospels were likely written well within the lifetime of the apostles.

 

[Quiet Sound]

The Roman Empire converted to Christianity because Christianity spread successfully, Christianity didn't spread successfully because of the Roman Empire, it was already doing that, the Romans just made it happen faster when they saw it was already working.

The extent of its spread prior to being adopted as a state religion is beyond my knowledge so I think I'll bow out here.

 

[Bill3000]

There are some differences, but certainly not great differences. For example, we have the tendency of building smaller churches and painting every single inch of the inside (and sometimes even on the outside), while Catholics and Protestants build big Cathedrals with much less drawings. And the music is different, but doctrines are pretty much the same. I do see some differences, but they are pretty subtle, I would say.

Honestly, the only thing that annoyed me is that the first post didn't say "Everyone is welcome", but just posted all the other important religions or denominations and said "Atheists, Muslims, Catholics, ... are all invited".

You're forgetting the most important part: You're the heirs of the Byzantine Empire.

 

[Shadylookin]

lots of people got crucified I doubt any of them ever came back to life however. The story of Jesus is not original nor do I think it happened

a. Saying that Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection were stolen from pagan myths is like saying Harry Potter plagerized Lord of the Rings because it has a wizard in it.

b. We have enough contemporary manuscripts to know that the gospels were likely written well within the lifetime of the apostles.

nobody worships harry potter and thinks it actually happend. By the way why are you so easily able to wave your hand at the crucifixions of osiris and mirithas, but are quick to accept the story of jesus even though it happened well afterward and is likely to have borrowed the ideas of earlier religions?

 

[Leifmk]

lots of people got crucified I doubt any of them ever came back to life however.

Although it would certainly not be outside the bounds of possibility for some crucifiction victim to be taken down while only appearing to be dead, and making a recovery later. Probably happened more than once, too.

 

[punkbass2000]

To become a Christian you have to confess that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour. That's it.

I'm not sure what you base that on, but, in any case, it would appear then that it is perfectly possible to believe in the crucifixion story and not be Christian.

 

[oagersnap]

I think, to be Christian, you have to accept Jesus as the (exclusive) Son of God and Messiah. I could be mistaken.

To become a Christian you have to confess that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour. That's it.

Actually, punkbass was right.

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.

He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.

He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,

the resurrection of the body,

and the life everlasting.
Amen.

 

[Mirc]

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.

He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.

He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,

the resurrection of the body,

and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Wow, is this the whole Catholic creed? It's much shorter than I thought...

Edit: Actually, I guess it's just the English language! In English, our creed is not very much longer.

Spoiler Orthodox Creed :

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-Begotten, begotten of the Father before all worlds [1],
Light of Light, Very God of Very God [2] , begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;

And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

The third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures;

And ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;

And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead;

Whose Kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father;
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sin.

I look for the Resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Stapel]

a. Saying that Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection were stolen from pagan myths is like saying Harry Potter plagerized Lord of the Rings because it has a wizard in it.

So, the Osyris/Dionysos myths about walking over water, turning water into wine, dying for our sins, crucifixion, resurrection, born on 25 december, and many other similarities are a dumb coincedence?
Sure!

b. We have enough contemporary manuscripts to know that the gospels were likely written well within the lifetime of the apostles.

Oh, get real.
Please show me!

Serious, I'm open for new sources!

 

[Shadylookin]

Although it would certainly not be outside the bounds of possibility for some crucifiction victim to be taken down while only appearing to be dead, and making a recovery later. Probably happened more than once, too.

I'm no expert as to how crucifixions are done, but even if it is possible to not die from one, managing to survive unconsciousness hardly qualifies you for worship.

 

[Stegyre]

So, the Osyris/Dionysos myths about walking over water, turning water into wine, dying for our sins, crucifixion, resurrection, born on 25 december, and many other similarities are a dumb coincedence?
Sure!

Certainly, both Osiris and Dionysus myths involved gods who died and came back to life - but neither by crucifixion. (I won't get into whether that was "resurrection," as there are different definitions of that term in different sects.)

IIRC, Dionysus is annually torn apart by titans (support)(symbollic of the pruning of the grape vine), while Osiris was sealed in a coffin (at least according to wiki) (apologies for my inability to point a link to a specific part of a lengthy webpage; someone want to tell me how? )

Dionysus turned water into wine, although in very different contexts (and different results) than Jesus at the marriage in Cana.

Neither one is known for "dying for our sins," "born on 25 December," or "walking over water." Do you have some source(s)? (And it's pretty generally accepted that Jesus wasn't born on 25 December: this was just good pr by early Christians to co-opt an existing holiday.)

Certainly, parallels may (and have) been drawn between Christian mythology and these ancient mythologies. (And I'm using "mythology" in a very loose sense: I'm a believer in this Christian "mythology.") But when you start pushing the argument past the point of any support, you discredit yourself.

You'd do yourself more credit if you brought the same rigor to the arguments you agree with as you do to those you disagree with.

 

[Sidhe]

I'm not sure what you base that on, but, in any case, it would appear then that it is perfectly possible to believe in the crucifixion story and not be Christian.

If your not a Christian though there's certain interpritations that say spiritual or body, so it's a bit of a mixed message. And those are just the ones in The Bible:Gospels et al.

 

[Elrohir]

The extent of its spread prior to being adopted as a state religion is beyond my knowledge so I think I'll bow out here.

Alright, fair enough. At least you're honest enough to admit it when you don't know, a lot of people would continue to argue the point even when they don't know what they're talking about. (Even I've been known to do that.)

nobody worships harry potter and thinks it actually happend. By the way why are you so easily able to wave your hand at the crucifixions of osiris and mirithas, but are quick to accept the story of jesus even though it happened well afterward and is likely to have borrowed the ideas of earlier religions?

Neither Osiris or Mithras were crucified.

Let's compare and contrast Mithras and Christ.

Mithras came from the "world egg" at the beginning of time. (Or a rock, depending on who you listen to.) Christ was born of a virgin. I don't think those are similar.

Mithras is most well known for killing the Great Bull, and effectively bringing spring to the world. (Which is why late December is so important in Mithraism/Zoroastrianism) Christ is most well known for dying on a Cross and being resurrected three days later, His dead having washed away the sins of men. Similar?

Christianity is open to everyone, and it's sacred scriptures can be read by anyone. Mithraism was a mystery cult, where you could only gain more knowledge by devotion and working your way up the ranks. Women were not allowed in Mithraism. Similar? I think not.

And so on and so forth. Besides the barest level of detail - some important guy dies - there really isn't any comparison. The reason they die, how they die, who they really are, how you find out about it, what you are required to do once you know, etc, are all different. If you want to believe Christianity ripped off Mithraism, then that's fine - but it's not a very historically accurate argument, based upon a closer look at the figures themselves.

 

[SWETBANG]

I reckon Jesus was an Alien. An Alien race came down and tried to teach monkey's (us) how to be civilized. Because if he really was the son of god, then he'd do a far better job. What did the world learn about someone being crucified?

A religion has spread, wars have been fought, ethnic cleansing ...anything else?

And what's this about god sending his word to human "prophets"? Ever heard of Chinese whispers. And why write a holy book in several different languages and then mistranslate them into other languages so people who say...speak English, can misinterpret those words. i.e. heaven meaning just the sky, sometime meaning a fairytale place. Giants meaning giants, but properly interpreted meaning "fallen angels". Was that gods master plan?

The best movie to watch if you want to know about religion is "Monty Pythons Life of Brian", that sums it all up.

If there truly is a god, and heaven and hell and eternity, then life is very small. In fact a human life is absolutely nothing...what’s 70 years compared to ETERNITY. Jesus suffered, he could have been skinned alive slowly and spat on and burnt. But all that suffering was absolutely nothing, it wasn't even a second, because he's got a bigger life in eternal heaven and he knew it….he‘s Jesus. So really, Jesus isn't that much of a big deal is he? I’d take 70 years of crucifixion right now if it would guarantee me a place in this eternal heaven.

You believe in god you can have eternal life in heaven, but you've only got a second to make a decision in your already confused mind as to whether god exists or not.

The ones who really deserve a place in heaven, are the ones who don't believe in the after-life and who wouldn't hurt anyone, and believe in respect for each other. Because them people were truly good, them types of people aren't scared into doing good.

So that's why religion is just that. A human creation. God might exist, but there is no true religion. And Jesus I don't believe was Gods creation.

 

[Leifmk]

Kind of funny how the argument has gone from "our religion's central myth is completely unique and no other religion has anything as significant" to "no other religion has a central myth exactly like ours".