It's a fair rule of thumb, but I though it was up to even T150? I would love to see a version of this rule that used something other than a turn number -- given that a Liberty player might settle several cities after NC.
The Deity Challenge Line-up #28 - Russia
- Thread starter Acken
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It's a fair rule of thumb, but I though it was up to even T150? I would love to see a version of this rule that used something other than a turn number -- given that a Liberty player might settle several cities after NC.
First the difference between a turn 200 win and a turn 299 win is obviously gigantic. A turn 299 win should - for a good player be possible on almost every map setup(I had that one game where I stole a worker from Assyria and he did disgusting things to me turn 50 that's the kind of exception).
Second, I don't like the idea of set "rules", think for yourself, adjust to the gameflow. Don't start out a game with a set plan, I usually look at the game got some benchmarks from experience and then know at turn 50 already around what turn I will finish the game.
Second, I don't like the idea of set "rules", think for yourself, adjust to the gameflow. Don't start out a game with a set plan, I usually look at the game got some benchmarks from experience and then know at turn 50 already around what turn I will finish the game.
You can use my formula to calculate if it's viable, you need some gold and probably have bigben/socialpolicies that make purchasing cheaper.
I don't use math in CiV when it requires a calculator! But I understood your formula to be for late founded cities. Also, isn't your formula just about science and happy, not rising SP and NW costs?
I am more interested in knowing when to cut off my initial (but post-NC) Liberty sprawl. I seem to go overboard with that, no doubt in part because it is so rare to have the space where more than eight cities is even an option.
Your formula is flawed as it assumes that new cities start with a fixed science which isn't true. They start with 1 pop and you need to rush building so that it would grow to a desired size. If you have that much gold surplus, why not rush buildings in your core cities or keep buying more CS for more optimal play? Also you will run into happiness problem eventually on deity due to massive ideological pressure. Even with 5 cities sometimes I have to invest heavily on happiness buildings to keep afloat on happiness.
I said it's situational and the formula is only as flawed as the user is. If you think I plant a city with 0 science and then consider it making 150 science then well you are wrong, I estimate what the scienceoutput will be.
Besides it was only an example, usually you got like 12 GS and not 8(8 normal +2 from faith +2 from Hubble).
With 12 GS and a new city that produces 100 science these new GS will bring 12*100*8 = 9600 science, if you are at researchlabs and use Oxford + last Rationalism for the 2 most expensive techs then the sciencecost will be ~140k or 152k if you used oxford earlier. 152k *0.05 = 7600
That gives you a gain of 2000 beakers without considering what this city could produce.
I originally used this strategy for Korea where the output will be slightly higher.
Besides it was only an example, usually you got like 12 GS and not 8(8 normal +2 from faith +2 from Hubble).
With 12 GS and a new city that produces 100 science these new GS will bring 12*100*8 = 9600 science, if you are at researchlabs and use Oxford + last Rationalism for the 2 most expensive techs then the sciencecost will be ~140k or 152k if you used oxford earlier. 152k *0.05 = 7600
That gives you a gain of 2000 beakers without considering what this city could produce.
I originally used this strategy for Korea where the output will be slightly higher.
vanatteveldt
Emperor
Finally finished a non-OCC DCL, I think it's my first. Peaceful game, never built a unit, but got a number of units from CS and foreign legion. Start was stellar due to location, but I think I messed up the mid and/or end game
I did all the 'normal' stuff, settled two scientists (maybe one too many, but that can't make that much difference), oxforded radio, might have bulbed one early tech but not quite sure.
Bulbed 3 GS + ratio finisher to get to hubble/apollo asap, had 5 remaining for end, so I guess I should have had more scientists somehow. I got some extra
Decided to go freedom and bought all parts and only built science in the end game except for manhattan+1 nuke as an insurance policy.
One thing I certainly did wrong is stopping research agreements on turn 180 or so because I was convinced that I would win earlier, that would have certainly shaved off some turns.
Also, I should maybe have gone patronage research earlier in order to boost GS values, I did have a number of CS allies for culture and protection, and I could have delayed tier 3 freedom without problem.
I guess all turn times after education are too late? Anything obvious from the screenshots that I'm doing wrong? I invested a bit in culture/tourism mainly to avoid unhappy, but I don't think it really distracted me that much, unless it makes sense to build research mid-game?
Edit: can't figure imgur out anymore, link to album: http://imgur.com/a/lGqkY, will try to get them included Never mind, they have little dots that you need to hover over, but the dots are very difficult to see because they are overlaid on the image... They should fire someone 
Edit: and me, too; messed up the t174 link...
I did all the 'normal' stuff, settled two scientists (maybe one too many, but that can't make that much difference), oxforded radio, might have bulbed one early tech but not quite sure.
Bulbed 3 GS + ratio finisher to get to hubble/apollo asap, had 5 remaining for end, so I guess I should have had more scientists somehow. I got some extra
Decided to go freedom and bought all parts and only built science in the end game except for manhattan+1 nuke as an insurance policy.
One thing I certainly did wrong is stopping research agreements on turn 180 or so because I was convinced that I would win earlier, that would have certainly shaved off some turns.
Also, I should maybe have gone patronage research earlier in order to boost GS values, I did have a number of CS allies for culture and protection, and I could have delayed tier 3 freedom without problem.
I guess all turn times after education are too late? Anything obvious from the screenshots that I'm doing wrong? I invested a bit in culture/tourism mainly to avoid unhappy, but I don't think it really distracted me that much, unless it makes sense to build research mid-game?
Spoiler t95 education :
Spoiler t138 schools :
Spoiler t174 plastic :
Spoiler t244 victory :
Edit: and me, too; messed up the t174 link...stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
T174 plastics is crazy good
vanatteveldt
Emperor
So if 174 plastics is "crazy good", why is my victory turn not "crazy good"?
I wouldn't expect <200 since I just don't have the skill and patience to micro that well and really understand how everything comes together at the right moment (i.e. timing policies / great writer so I can get rationalism the turn I get acoustics, etc). But given the great start and the early progress I would have expected something more like t220 rather than t244?
How many GS would you normally expect to be able to burn in the final push? I had 3 waiting, plus 2 from hubble, plus 2 from faith, plus probably 2 or 3 born after t174. I've always worked all scientist slots, at least in Moscow and St. Petersburg, so I'm not sure how I could have really generated many more scientists?
One decision I'm not sure about is that I made St. Pete my "GP Farm" (because of lake victoria) and has the national epic and the three guilds, allowing the capital to spend more time working food and/or production tiles. Also, maybe Order would have been better for the factory research boost and the free GS?
Edit: I can post the autosaves for the relevant turns if anyone is interested, maybe I'll replay anyway from ideology or from plastic to see if I can do better if people have good ideas of what I'm doing "wrong"
I wouldn't expect <200 since I just don't have the skill and patience to micro that well and really understand how everything comes together at the right moment (i.e. timing policies / great writer so I can get rationalism the turn I get acoustics, etc). But given the great start and the early progress I would have expected something more like t220 rather than t244?
How many GS would you normally expect to be able to burn in the final push? I had 3 waiting, plus 2 from hubble, plus 2 from faith, plus probably 2 or 3 born after t174. I've always worked all scientist slots, at least in Moscow and St. Petersburg, so I'm not sure how I could have really generated many more scientists?
One decision I'm not sure about is that I made St. Pete my "GP Farm" (because of lake victoria) and has the national epic and the three guilds, allowing the capital to spend more time working food and/or production tiles. Also, maybe Order would have been better for the factory research boost and the free GS?
Edit: I can post the autosaves for the relevant turns if anyone is interested, maybe I'll replay anyway from ideology or from plastic to see if I can do better if people have good ideas of what I'm doing "wrong"
Hi vanatteveldt, not too good at science victories myself, but noticed that in the Plastics screenshoot you have 1 city still building public schools? its been 36 turns since sci theory.
Also 53 tourism and 430 culture is a bit overkill imo - even with effiel tower thats still 41 tourism coming from somewhere else? Thats a lot of hammer into culture which could have gone into science (eg more spec slots buildings). I think WF (1000 hammers) and culture CS is enough to get policies you need + some ideo defense.
Also 53 tourism and 430 culture is a bit overkill imo - even with effiel tower thats still 41 tourism coming from somewhere else? Thats a lot of hammer into culture which could have gone into science (eg more spec slots buildings). I think WF (1000 hammers) and culture CS is enough to get policies you need + some ideo defense.
Look at ST's spreadsheet. The average finishing turn is 243. You are at 244. What is not to love?
vanatteveldt
Emperor
Yeah I was probably too lax with the third city. I bought asap in the other cities, but then I ran out of money and that city had decent production, but I didn't prioritize right. I guess I also should have built the northern city 1 square east to get the observatory.
I probably went a bit overboard with the tourism, I generally ignored it in previuos games and now overcompensated. However, mid-game there isn't so much to build so I build a bunch of wonders, including broadway, and great musicians have nothing better to do anyway so that gives 6+3=9 tourism, and I dug up four archeology sites in my borders for another 8+2+1=11 tourism, and I think I used my first two writers for great works as well for another 4+2=6 tourism in oxford. I'll check where the others come from, I probably made some great works of art as well, maybe should have used those for GA's.
I probably went a bit overboard with the tourism, I generally ignored it in previuos games and now overcompensated
. However, mid-game there isn't so much to build so I build a bunch of wonders, including broadway, and great musicians have nothing better to do anyway so that gives 6+3=9 tourism, and I dug up four archeology sites in my borders for another 8+2+1=11 tourism, and I think I used my first two writers for great works as well for another 4+2=6 tourism in oxford. I'll check where the others come from, I probably made some great works of art as well, maybe should have used those for GA's.
@stormtrooper412, I am not finding my Siam game listed.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
So if 174 plastics is "crazy good", why is my victory turn not "crazy good"?
I wouldn't expect <200 since I just don't have the skill and patience to micro that well and really understand how everything comes together at the right moment (i.e. timing policies / great writer so I can get rationalism the turn I get acoustics, etc). But given the great start and the early progress I would have expected something more like t220 rather than t244?
How many GS would you normally expect to be able to burn in the final push? I had 3 waiting, plus 2 from hubble, plus 2 from faith, plus probably 2 or 3 born after t174. I've always worked all scientist slots, at least in Moscow and St. Petersburg, so I'm not sure how I could have really generated many more scientists?
One decision I'm not sure about is that I made St. Pete my "GP Farm" (because of lake victoria) and has the national epic and the three guilds, allowing the capital to spend more time working food and/or production tiles. Also, maybe Order would have been better for the factory research boost and the free GS?
Edit: I can post the autosaves for the relevant turns if anyone is interested, maybe I'll replay anyway from ideology or from plastic to see if I can do better if people have good ideas of what I'm doing "wrong"
I'm pretty sure I hit Plastics after T174 in my game but I managed a T229 finish. Not much better but I probably ended up with one more GS than you did which made that slightest difference. You're "supposed" to take around 40-ish turns from Plastics to end.
However, I noticed your northern expo was not next to a mountain so you missed out on the 3rd observatory which would have made MUCH difference at the end. I also noticed you had a lot of gold and yet the school in your western expo was still building by the time you hit plastics, which was 40 turns ago. A general rule of thumb is to rush buy science building ASAP so you don't miss a beat
There's also the art of knowing how and when to start bulbing the scientists
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
@beetle
fixed
fixed
Thanks ST, again, I so appreciate your work on that. My apologies for not sending by PM.
@vanatteveldt, should I play this map, T244 will go from one turn above the mean to a few turns below it. Most of the DCL submissions are from players who are are “crazy good”, so really I do not think you should be beating yourself up. Still, it is neat that you do so well -- and still get tips!
@vanatteveldt, should I play this map, T244 will go from one turn above the mean to a few turns below it. Most of the DCL submissions are from players who are are “crazy good”, so really I do not think you should be beating yourself up. Still, it is neat that you do so well -- and still get tips!
vanatteveldt
Emperor
Yeah the N expo was stupid, not sure what my thinking was. I don't think I want to go that far back (although a peaceful game like this is not that time consuming, so I might).
I was under the impression that you can bulb multiple scientists without problem in a single turn since the cost of an end-game tech is about the same as a single bulb, and you immediately get one tech per bulb, so there is no capped overflow. Is that not the case?
Thanks
. I wasn't trying to beat myself up, just have the feeling that my SV end game is suboptimal given the amount of turns between plastic and victory, and it's indeed great to be getting so many tips! In a good game, I believe should be around 50 turns between getting Ideology via Radio, to finishing the SV game. You took 70 turns to get from plastics to winning, and that's a bit more than needed. I'm pretty sure you need to figure out how to bulb GS correctly or timing them.
When in doubt, only bulb 1 GS per turn as that always work as expected. There is some case that would prevent you from getting more than 1 tech per turn when you bulb multiple GS due to the fact that the overflow will only be added on at the beginning of next turn. Also if you bulb a tech that has less than 3 turns remaining, you run the risk of capping the bulb.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
or, something I like to do, either bulb a tech that's halfway there and overshoot to the next without loss and then bulb the next one on the same tech that I won't get anyway. Basically, having to dump all the beakers into SOME tech.
But 1 GS per turn is a lot safer, especially since you won't really be in that much of a rush (gold, ratio finisher etc etc)
No problem, again I encourage everyone to notify me if you see anything off.
Also, only a few of the players here are "crazy good", and I'm certainly not there
But 1 GS per turn is a lot safer, especially since you won't really be in that much of a rush (gold, ratio finisher etc etc)
No problem, again I encourage everyone to notify me if you see anything off.
Also, only a few of the players here are "crazy good", and I'm certainly not there
