The Deity Challenge Line-up #31 - Ottomans

[Olodune]

@Acken

Spoiler :

Very interesting. Why the Acad (from Liberty finisher, I assume) in SS2?

It looks like Indonesia is sending a Cargo in SS2, if there is not a similar extra beaker source in SS1 it may be causing some distortion in the comparison.

Am I right that SS2 has secularism while SS1 doesn't? If neither has secularism then SS1 is well ahead on culture ...

Are you planning on playing either out to t150? If so I'd be curious to see a screen

 

[InDubioProReo]

Lol...

'Barbary Corsairs' didn't even come from the core of the Ottoman Empire, but rather from the territories of the North African coast which came under Ottoman rule for some time. While it is majorly confusing as to why they received such an awkward and unfitting UA, you also have to keep in mind that civ is a "history-inspired" and not actually historically accurate game.

I would do something silly like Honor-Exploration, but it's probably super suboptimal, and I don't have time to play anyway.

I know that mate, I'm from Turkey myself. Still, we weren't exactly a naval power at any time, as I've outlined in the post I've quoted. Barbaros Hayreddin Pasha was Barbary yes, and his group of pirates converted to Islam helped Ottoman Navy establish dominance in Mediterranean. However, what made Ottoman Empire dominate an era was not solely its naval force, it was other factors such as its well run tax collection system and its strong ground army at that time. Janissaries and Sipahi are fine for reflecting this, but UA is mostly what makes or breaks a civ, because units are only relevant for a certain amount of time while most UA are relevant during the duration of a game.

You might say that civs are only historically influenced around bonuses, however that doesn't explain civs like England or Zulu, where their UAs were clearly influenced by what they did right around that era. Keeping or maintaining a huge armada or having a very strong naval force wasn't really what made Ottomans relevant during their golden age. Don't get me wrong, for a time Ottomans clearly dominated Mediterranean Sea (16th century until 18th-19th maybe) and also maintained a strong naval force, however as I said naval battles weren't exactly the hallmark of Ottomans.

I would give them a decrease in unhappiness from conquered cities or something along the times, something administrative-wise, or maybe a gold bonus. I don't know. But as you said, the UA they received this game is really awkward (have not played Civ 3 and 4 and I don't know their bonuses back then)

 

[consentient]

If we're being historically accurate, the Ottoman empire should have the Arabian UA, on stilts


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[Acken]

@Acken

Spoiler :

Very interesting. Why the Acad (from Liberty finisher, I assume) in SS2?

It looks like Indonesia is sending a Cargo in SS2, if there is not a similar extra beaker source in SS1 it may be causing some distortion in the comparison.

Am I right that SS2 has secularism while SS1 doesn't? If neither has secularism then SS1 is well ahead on culture ...

Are you planning on playing either out to t150? If so I'd be curious to see a screen

-What do you mean ? Both opener use the academy. The main reasoning is that the capital has enough production to make the NC. In SS2 I had very little to do with the capital anyway. Both games got the NC around T90-95. While you get the NC later the long terms beaker are better.
-Both game have exactly 2 external routes their way (indonesia + spain)
-SS1 hasn't opened rationalism yet while SS2 has. No secularism for either
-Yes I'll play to T150 but I'm 100% confident the second game is better. The main source of distortion in fact are the city states. But truly this will have an impact mostly post T125 because it was fairly similar most of the early game.

The difference however is not just faster engineering but also the investment in an early route to boost beakers while you spam settlers so that your workers can hook up luxuries. I think it really paid off because of the bigger diversity Liberty usually need. This game requires Mining Masonry Trapping and Calendar.

 

[Solutionfinder]

Turn 82 - opener and early game

Spoiler :

I really had a good start with Liberty, could have start working on NC on turn 70 with 5 cities but my scout up north saw Spain units moving my way and I had to fork out defense instead because I couldn`t pay her to attack Bucharest or Kamenhameha so she put me into unhappiness and killed some of my units. I managed to repel her but she delayed my progress...came to Edu on turn 118 then stopped...need a couple of beers first after another stressful opener

 

[Bimblecrumbs]

To turn 181.

Does the Heroic Epic affect ranged strength as well as combat strength?

Spoiler :

I opened Honour, planning to take over my continent quickly and progress from there. Unfortunately the choice of targets comprised of a single rather distant Spain, and on a choke point no less! Though relatively happy with my start, I'm really hoping that honour pays off when I start my later wars.

I got a 3 city NC on turn 83 [Picture 1] and Petra in the cap on turn 93. The 4th possible spot inland wasn't coastal, and I never build 4 with honour anyway. Just one early food cargo to my cap, the rest were gold/science ones to Spain. I foolishly didn't scout Indonesia until late, and should have prioritised a Trireme, especially as the Ottomans.

I got the 5th religion and picked tithe/production. My other 2 cities flitted back and forth between other faiths, and have pagodas/mosques and +2 tourism per building. I'll leave them be.

Before warring I built 3 temples and the grand temple as well as 2 guilds in my cap.
No, no, no! This is a bad habit from my peaceful civ days and isn't applicable to (early ish) Domination.
It was a terrible waste and I reloaded here to correct my mistake; instead of temples building barracks and putting the guilds in my production-shy eastern city Edrine, with a market/mint in the cap instead.

My first target was Indonesia due to his proximity and powerful 10-wonder cap, which would hopefully serve as a more than adequate unit purchasing base on the other continent.

I built 6 Galleases in my cap, furnished with Barracks/Armoury/Heroic Epic, upgraded them into Frigates (also had 2 Caravels, 2 Privateers) and attacked immediately. It was easy because he just had the one Galleas nearby, but I had hoped for more resistance to farm gold/xp... [Picture 2]

I then joined in on the Attila denouncement train and attacked a couple of his coastal cities to get logistics on my Frigates as early as possible.

The first 6 now have logistics, or are 1 attack away from it. I've also built some extra ships to help out [Picture 3] and now it's decision time... to attack the beast that is Polynesia, with his 280k army score, or to leave him until last. I've chosen the more entertaining option and bought out+couped the 2 CS on his island as distractions/ship healing bases. Added to this need is the fact that his 85 defence cap may soon become immune to Frigates. I've already committed to bulbing for Industrialisation/Dynamite, so Battleships are too far off and my science per turn sucks.

A research agreement with Spain just ended and I've signed another. 3 factories for Autocracy are finished in 8 turns, World's Fair Silver in 2, and I'm 5-6% behind Polynesia in tech. If the assault doesn't work, the game will probably be lost... but I'll post the results anyway

 

[Acken]

T152 update
Opener 1:

Spoiler :

Opener 2:

Spoiler :

Not sure I'll continue number 1.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

I downloaded and played! And

Spoiler :

on turn 8 I'm already paralyzed with indecision!

Thoughts on the screenshot:

Spoiler :

So the question is upleft, down-right, or on-spot. The river doesn't offer any benefits other than being a river. The actual river tiles are bare so Hydro Plant isn't much value, and obviously Water Mill < Cargo grains.

Moving off from these desert hills means missing out on these bonus features. Here's the puzzle as I see it: What could possibly be further up? And what could be further down? Finding Fountain of Youth would motivate settling up. Coastal Krakatoa. Little else can be imagined to gain from it. But there could be some fertile opportunities past the Wheat, which Warrior can spot from a hill.

It's so attractive to go down-right and with no rational prospect upward, I can consider another mission for the Warrior briefly. Meanwhile I bet dollars to doughnuts there's a City-State up at that Flood Plain, so that's a worker steal (stupid CSs). If the worker would even be there so early I'd send the Warrior right there, but, let's stick to information.

So, Warrior goes to grass canyon, then Forest hill unless there's a Forest Hill right beside it. The decision is easier food early vs. .... working a grass stone quarry for Stone Circles maybe? Then first tech is either Pottery and try Shrine I guess, or Archery to wander around with an actual relevant army vs. hand-axes. I definitely want to see about expanding , which means throwing some army around which means money. All these resources make it unlikely there is Iron, or for that matter horses, about; but that's why we have to look to see what the chances are. So build will be Scouts until Shrine.

Tradition is needed because cultural borders growing is a nice thing to have kay thanx. Ugh.

That's what I was thinking before I took my first move.

Actual commentary:

Spoiler Actual gameplay here! :

Poof!

 

[peddroelm]

@Bimblecrumbs - very nice play - I never manage to get frigate timings right .. Interesting how warring early vs low defense cities allows you to get logistics before range detour ..

Your map winning unit (after frigates) might be ironclads (oxford ?) (to capture all AIs fleets) ..

might give this map a try ..

Crazy experiment idea .. Spam 10-12 triremes and try to capture a 0 XP galleas/frigate fleet from under the AI at caravel tech (too crazy will not try - need own core of promoted frigates and can add captures later) ..

 

[Bimblecrumbs]

@peddroelm

Spoiler :

Yep his coastal cities have a low enough combat strength to survive, and I had a few converted cannon fodder units to soak damage, as well as other civs being at war with him and having units in city bombardment range. Healing took place back at Jakarta.

I always forget about Ironclads! If there's enough enough shallow water then I will for sure. The problem is that, looking at the other continent, I think it needs Oxforded Artis. We'll see

I'd definitely watch your Caravel rush idea, but I don't think it'd be too effective You'd need to be lucky; they only have a 42% conversion chance vs. Navigation units.

 

[Acken]

Culture victory on turn 225

Peaceful game. As previous posts outlined it's not the first play and it was with a 6 city Liberty game. End game tourism is with International Games. I got Sistine, LToP, Uffizi, Porcelain, Eiffel Tower, Broadway and SoL.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[vanatteveldt]

t125, I tried to copy Acken's (second) example

Spoiler :

For comparison, this is Acken's screenshot from the first page:

Spoiler :

The most striking difference is the city sizes: mine are 15,9,8,6,6,5, Acken's are 17,14,11,10,8,7, or 18 (>33%) extra population. I guess I probably founded them too late, I waited until collective rule with building settlers.

Also, I got distracted by building a shrine, that was probably a mistake; I also hand built a worker relatively early because stealing didn't seem to go well, but right after that I did manage to steal workers, so I ended up with one more than I need (1 built, 1 free, 2 pyramids, and 2 stolen). I decided to build the pyramids also because it was a CS quest.

I only got workshops fairly late, that was presumably a mistake (I took iron working because I thought the colossus was not taken yet and my free GP was coming up, but it had already been taken a while ago anyway.)

I'm tempted to replay the start to see if I can avoid these mistakes and see where I end up.

Edit: Q: I got converted to a religion that has monasteries and jesuit education. Do you think that make it worth building shrines and/or temples everywhere?

 

[consentient]

If your faith per turn is high anyway, then let them give you their religion, but if you've not got any faith then in a peaceful game with four cities, you won't have high enough faith per turn to make it worth building temples. You'll scarcely get a university back


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[stormtrooper412]

What a lame cop-out did exactly the same as in the Iroquois map.

Went Tradition, then sank some into Commerce, then went proper Rationalism.

At one point I started buying off city states with the megabucks. Northern neighbor was marching an army towards my cities twice but didn't follow through so it was either a false alarm or a change of heart, iunno.

 

[Acken]

t125, I tried to copy Acken's (second) example

Spoiler :

For comparison, this is Acken's screenshot from the first page:

Spoiler :

The most striking difference is the city sizes: mine are 15,9,8,6,6,5, Acken's are 17,14,11,10,8,7, or 18 (>33%) extra population. I guess I probably founded them too late, I waited until collective rule with building settlers.

Also, I got distracted by building a shrine, that was probably a mistake; I also hand built a worker relatively early because stealing didn't seem to go well, but right after that I did manage to steal workers, so I ended up with one more than I need (1 built, 1 free, 2 pyramids, and 2 stolen). I decided to build the pyramids also because it was a CS quest.

I only got workshops fairly late, that was presumably a mistake (I took iron working because I thought the colossus was not taken yet and my free GP was coming up, but it had already been taken a while ago anyway.)

I'm tempted to replay the start to see if I can avoid these mistakes and see where I end up.

Edit: Q: I got converted to a religion that has monasteries and jesuit education. Do you think that make it worth building shrines and/or temples everywhere?

Well I also did a shrine and a worker. My opener was something like this:
Techs: Pottery Mining Sailing AH BW Luxs
Capital: Scout Monument Shrine Worker Cargo(start) Settler Cargo(finish) Settler x3 Trireme Granary Library StoneWorks Lighthouse

Then all expansions were more or less: Monument Granary Library Lighthouse/WaterMill Aqueduct Workshop
The first expansion did a cargo after Granary.

If happiness is low I suggest working more hammers than usual, no need to reach negative happiness. Also I often stagnate at size 2 until the granary is completed (unless there are multiple 2F 1H tiles to work). I rushed a lighthouse in North city.
Extra workers came from: 1 Spain, 2 Bucharest, 1 Barb camp.

 

[vanatteveldt]

I tried again, slightly better population wise: 13 11 10 8 7 7 (compared to my earlier 15,9,8,6,6,5, Acken's 17,14,11,10,8,7). Got NC/edu pretty late, probably started too late on libraries. I did get Petra with the lib finisher, so that's quite nice.

Well I also did a shrine and a worker. My opener was something like this:
Techs: Pottery Mining Sailing AH BW Luxs
Capital: Scout Monument Shrine Worker Cargo(start) Settler Cargo(finish) Settler x3 Trireme Granary Library StoneWorks Lighthouse

Then all expansions were more or less: Monument Granary Library Lighthouse/WaterMill Aqueduct Workshop
The first expansion did a cargo after Granary.

Hmm, that's more or less what I did except for the second cargo to the capital (which probably explains the low pop in my cap), and a granary instead of a shrine. Why no granary in the capital? Or did city 2 get the wheat?

If happiness is low I suggest working more hammers than usual, no need to reach negative happiness. Also I often stagnate at size 2 until the granary is completed (unless there are multiple 2F 1H tiles to work). I rushed a lighthouse in North city.
Extra workers came from: 1 Spain, 2 Bucharest, 1 Barb camp.

Happiness wasn't really the problem. I didn't steal from spain so I could trade the second silver for a a copper. I did build pyramids again, not sure if that's a smart trade-off.

Tempted to restart a third time, just to see if I can improve the start. Thanks for sharing your BO!

 

[Acken]

There is a Granary in the capital, after the Trireme. It's useless to make a Granary before spamming settlers. The first cargo is used toward Spain. It only feeds the capital after.

I do not like the pyramids if you can steal workers.

Do not focus too much on pop numbers some of it could be due to lucky maritime/mercantile quests.

 

[nickytootricky]

Nice win, Acken. Interesting how you manage to make Liberty work. I always seem to fail at it.

 

[Solutionfinder]

Turn 339 - I surrender

Spoiler :

I could make an attempt to hijack the remaining 3 captials from Kamehameha but all the stats are against me. The AI is stupid though, should have won DV couple of turns ago but for some reason he decided not to buy 1 more CS with that amount of cash he has(see last picture). He could also just kill Indonesia and win CV because he is closing on me anyway, but no movement in this direction. SV also in sight but needs more turns before he can complete it. So yeah there is a chance to deal with this stupidity, all caps are in sight and I even have small fleets + Xcoms ready. But do I really want to fight against endless horde of the dead and almost all the CS alongside? Even If I had willpower to do that, I would most likely run out of time or just get overwhelmed by nukes and zombies



I might restart and try to see if I can do any better in my domination attempt. I just need to deal with Kameha first because this is his favourite setting, he can`t be reached early on while he can reach everyone because of UA and this guarantees him perfect start without delay.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

They need to add a new difficulty level "Acken": AI's start with Philosophy, get free science buildings upon discovering the required tech, and receive Rationalism-Secularism for free upon entering the Renaissance.