The Deity Challenge Lineup - Game #7 - Ethiopia

[consentient]

IMPORTANT NOTICE:

Though this map is quite old, it can still be played, so if you play it and complete it, please send me a PM so I can update the finisher's spreadsheet.

Thank you.

 

[nickytootricky]

Spoiler :

Hi guys. What a slog going for the Diplo victory with the Small Piety strategy. Ridiculously far behind but managed to pull it out of the bag with some cheesy loans and a DOW on my long term friend, Rome (he took my capital 1 turn after I DOWed him - ouch - but by this time I'd won). Key to the strategy was engineering the downfall of Greece, and staying so friendly with the AIs that I was able to pay three of them to vote for me as World Leader. Didn't get the gold or culture going early enough to get World Religion but did get World Ideology towards the end. So quite a cheesy victory but a victory nonetheless. The Small Piety strategy is optimised with coastal cities, certainly. I did make a few key errors (not finding all the city states, not going Patronage early enough), but there were some strong civs out there (why are the Iroquois always so strong?).

 

[stormtrooper412]

Hey, remember when you played this map forever ago

Spoiler :

Turn around 190. I'll hit Plastics soon enough. DoFs from Hiya, Harun, Polandball and Caesar all working nicely. I just sold them a crap ton of aluminium for cash. If I can hit oil, that will be more cash for me, huzzah.

For a change I went 5 cities, most of them hardly any good and only my cap is over 20. Still, I've just hit Modern era and I'm somehow already 3rd in science.

Meanwhile, Japan killed Alex and has just denounced me for no reason. Once again, nobody picked Freedom except me so I'll be forced to fight the major waves of ideological unhappiness but once I hit the happiness tenets, I should be alright.

No way this goes under 300 though

 

[consentient]

Wow. What on earth is going on with that screenshot? Your capital is gone, and was under attack before it was sold or captured, your science is terrible, and you have a huge amount of gold. No offence but scouting is so bad you can't possibly have met all the CS, right? Yet you have won Diplo??? I am puzzled :S

 

[kb27787]

He bought votes from major civs (some AIs will sell them to you sometimes); that is all...

Which just goes to show anyone can win diplo no matter from how far behind if the AI lets them, despite being completely outclassed by the deity difficulty level itself. All you just need is a coastal city and you're gold.

I'm not sure you can sell your capitol though...

 

[Fluphen Azine]

He bought votes from major civs (some AIs will sell them to you sometimes); that is all...

Which just goes to show anyone can win diplo no matter from how far behind if the AI lets them, despite being completely outclassed by the deity difficulty level itself. All you just need is a coastal city and you're gold.

I'm not sure you can sell your capitol though...

Ya well not everyone can win Domination so instead of degrading players who go with Diplomatic why don't you show how awesome you are winning Domination Victory on Deity? Let's see you outclass the AI with your army... oh I forgot you don't believe in war you only believe in peace unless you need war to get some workers or wreck the AI using a GG against the AIs capital. Unreal that you would say that players are outclassed by an AI that can not win on any level and basically can not win any VC before a human player can. My case in point is Ackens or Ironfighterxxxs SV on the last DCL around turn 215 which means the AI can't compete against anyone if you play your game optimal since they are in the modern or atomic or industrial era and you are finishing the tech tree! I swear if you win a few Deity Domination games I will go and play peaceful and show how easy it is to get a CV victory every time as you have already shown many many times. The game is completely broken and it does not matter how you win or how fast you win... the point is that you basically can't lose no matter what! The main reason I do not play peaceful CV with all your special rules that you lay out is because I find it very boring. However, Consentient has expressed how boring killing unit after unit is but I find that fun, so it is just a matter of personal enjoyment by the player.

 

[kb27787]

Ya well not everyone can win Domination so instead of degrading players who go with Diplomatic why don't you show how awesome you are winning Domination Victory on Deity? Let's see you outclass the AI with your army... oh I forgot you don't believe in war you only believe in peace. Unreal that you would say that players are outclassed by an AI that can not win on any level and basically can not win any VC before a human player can. My case in point is Ackens or Ironfighterxxxs SV on the last DCL around turn 215 which means the AI can't compete against anyone if you play your game optimal since they are in the modern or atomic or industrial era and you are finishing the tech tree! I swear if you win a few Deity Domination games I will go and play peaceful and show how easy it is to get a CV victory every time as you have already shown many many times. The game is completely broken and it does not matter how you win or how fast you win... the point is that you basically can't lose no matter what! The main reason I do not play peaceful CV with all your special rules that you lay out is because I find it very boring. However, Consentient has expressed how boring killing unit after unit is but I find that fun, so it is just a matter or personal enjoyment by the player.

Players like Acken completely outclass the AI, that's why...
And I fail to see your logic (unless you assume everyone can play like Ironfighter or Acken but they just decide to play badly so they barely win... or lose); some players are truly completely outclassed by the deity level difficulty, including myself on some starts.

You DO have to agree though that sometimes you'll find deity Alex spending all his gold on CS, winning DV instantly once you enter info, and some other times he won't bother as much... That's what's weird about DV the most; it's almost a dice roll depending on whether or not the AI decides to spend their mountains of gold on CS.

Now I have no intention to pick a fight with anyone, so chill out. I'm hardly the only one here who thinks the same way about DV. Another poster once said a 10yr old could win DV on deity.

As for the 2nd part of that speech you just made there, very well, I accept your challenge (how hard can an X-com rush on every cap with spies planted beforehand be?); while I can't pull off a CB or XB rush because frankly I've never done it on deity, artillery rushes should be easy enough. The main reason I don't "do" war mainly is because the unit cycle takes forever on my poor overheated laptop (and besides by my personal taste, empires that are conquered through war are, well, quite ugly... small cities which won't grow and a bunch of fallout and pillaged tiles).

Now if you think you can win peaceful CV on deity by my rules, and it's easy (realistically though, if you think it's really easy, show me a map where your CV is quicker than your SV or DV), OK go ahead; I'll say it straight that it's not that hard if you know what to do (but I think you'll find you're going to have to change your playstyle by a lot) but I DO think it's harder than the SVs and DVs on the vast majority of maps. (I can think of certain deity maps where SV is SO much easier than CV... I can't think of one in which the opposite would be true)

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Players like Acken completely outclass the AI, that's why...
And I fail to see your logic (unless you assume everyone can play like Ironfighter or Acken but they just decide to play badly so they barely win... or lose); some players are truly completely outclassed by the deity level difficulty, including myself on some starts.

You DO have to agree though that sometimes you'll find deity Alex spending all his gold on CS, winning DV instantly once you enter info, and some other times he won't bother as much... That's what's weird about DV the most; it's almost a dice roll depending on whether or not the AI decides to spend their mountains of gold on CS.

Now I have no intention to pick a fight with anyone, so chill out. I'm hardly the only one here who thinks the same way about DV. Another poster once said a 10yr old could win DV on deity.

As for the 2nd part of that speech you just made there, very well, I accept your challenge (how hard can an X-com rush on every cap with spies planted beforehand be?); while I can't pull off a CB or XB rush because frankly I've never done it on deity, artillery rushes should be easy enough. The main reason I don't "do" war mainly is because the unit cycle takes forever on my poor overheated laptop (and besides by my personal taste, empires that are conquered through war are, well, quite ugly... small cities which won't grow and a bunch of fallout and pillaged tiles).

Now if you think you can win peaceful CV on deity by my rules, and it's easy (realistically though, if you think it's really easy, show me a map where your CV is quicker than your SV or DV), OK go ahead; I'll say it straight that it's not that hard if you know what to do (but I think you'll find you're going to have to change your playstyle by a lot) but I DO think it's harder than the SVs and DVs on the vast majority of maps. (I can think of certain deity maps where SV is SO much easier than CV... I can't think of one in which the opposite would be true)

I would like to see the average 10 year old win Diplo on Deity though that would impress me!
Oh ok your right... I do need to chill out though lol!

Oh nevermind... I forgot you are on a laptop... going for Deity Domination on a Laptop is a nightmare and can overheat it as well. In fact playing this game on a laptop on stand/stand is a nightmare period! I just think all the VCs are very easy if you know what you are doing but to say that the AI is outclassing someone who has won the game is pushing it a little too far for me. It is obvious that you can win Domination and I can win CV, although my turn times will be later but in all honesty you have already laid out the formula for peaceful CV and with a few test games I do not believe I would have a problem winning this way. However, I would find it more fun going Domination and forcing a CV for my style.

Also it is not that hard to copy Acken or Ironfighter if you want to win your game pre 250 as they have pretty much laid out all the ways to achieve this as well. Personally I do not enjoy winning the game in the Industrial era since I like to use most of the units to wage war and I enjoy dropping Nukes but that is my own personal enjoyment. Also you are right it would not be hard for you to complete an Xcom rush as it has been shown many times.

About the AI and the gold...I have finished the game with Diplo VC and Alex has had over 100k gold on the table but I have never seen Alex win a Diplo Victory in my games although he could have. I have been beaten by him with SV but it was more about my mistakes and not about the AI outclassing the player.

On another note I usually now play my games on Fractal Maps with Alex, Korea, Ethiopia, Pacal and some others. However having Alex, Korea, & Ethiopia in the game will make it harder since these civs are stronger against the player (IMHO). If you play against other AIs the game becomes even easier but no matter you still should be able to crush the AI no matter who is in the game with the correct game play. The only reason I or other players lose who usually win most of the time on Deity is because of experimentation or flat out mistakes, not because the AI outclassed them.

 

[kb27787]

I would like to see the average 10 year old win Diplo on Deity though that would impress me!
Oh ok your right... I do need to chill out though lol!

Oh nevermind... I forgot you are on a laptop... going for Deity Domination on a Laptop is a nightmare and can overheat it as well. In fact playing this game on a laptop on stand/stand is a nightmare period! I just think all the VCs are very easy if you know what you are doing but to say that the AI is outclassing someone who has won the game is pushing it a little too far for me. It is obvious that you can win Domination and I can win CV, although my turn times will be later but in all honesty you have already laid out the formula for peaceful CV and with a few test games I do not believe I would have a problem winning this way. However, I would find it more fun going Domination and forcing a CV for my style.

Also it is not that hard to copy Acken or Ironfighter if you want to win your game pre 250 as they have pretty much laid out all the ways to achieve this as well. Personally I do not enjoy winning the game in the Industrial era since I like to use most of the units to wage war and I enjoy dropping Nukes but that is my own personal enjoyment. Also you are right it would not be hard for you to complete an Xcom rush as it has been shown many times.

About the AI and the gold...I have finished the game with Diplo VC and Alex has had over 100k gold on the table but I have never seen Alex win a Diplo Victory in my games although he could have. I have been beaten by him with SV but it was more about my mistakes and not about the AI outclassing the player.

On another note I usually now play my games on Fractal Maps with Alex, Korea, Ethiopia, Pacal and some others. However having Alex, Korea, & Ethiopia in the game will make it harder since these civs are stronger against the player (IMHO). If you play against other AIs the game becomes even easier but no matter you still should be able to crush the AI no matter who is in the game with the correct game play. The only reason I or other players lose who usually win most of the time on Deity is because of experimentation or flat out mistakes, not because the AI outclassed them.

Well, the person who said it was Tich (the deity pro who wrote the Shoshone guide a while back) although I agree to an extent... (sell all your gpt and cities the turn before the vote, buy everything and DoW everyone)

I guess we have different definitions of "outclass" then; if a boxer loses by a KO in R1 after 10 secs because he was caught off guard, people watching can say he got outclassed no? Part of being a good whatever (athlete, gamer, student) is making the least number of mistakes you are able to. I would agree with you: the difference between a prince player and pros like Acken are just mistakes and making the right decisions (after all, no matter who we are we all have the same options and clicks on the screen). Losing your cap, and being stuck on a bpt that would not even win SV to me while being at war with a civ that has SAMs is, to me, already outclassed because you would be wiped out eventually once any sort of army arrives.
I apologize if I came across as offensive to those involved.

If you want to see deity AI go for DV, just look at DC1 (Assyria); only by exploiting the fact that military units gifted by arsenal of democracy appear and increase the influence on the CS's (and not the major civ AI's) turn (so they cannot give gold to get the CS right back) did I manage to deny Alex a DV. I would give gold to a CS, he'd just give more during his turn (and he had boatloads). He simply wouldn't relent at all. Of course, the other way to deny, is, of course DoW once you bought the CS (but that's, for a lack of a better word, cheesey)

but anyhow I accept your challenge nonetheless, in good spirit of course. The next Valentine's day special, I will attempt non-Xcom DomV (might take several hours) if F.A promises to attempt CV with no DoW or bribes!

 

[Fluphen Azine]

you forgot about no bulbs... lol it really is going to bore me to tears but I will go with it. I am going to play a bunch of test games before the DCL though to get the hang of it but no DOW ... ugh that is not going to be fun... not even a DOW to steal workers? I had to open my big mouth lol! Although it is not hard to manipulate the AI into DOWing you and after that it is fair game and I can go on a warpath!

 

[kb27787]

you forgot about no bulbs... lol it really is going to bore me to tears but I will go with it. I am going to play a bunch of test games before the DCL though to get the hang of it but no DOW ... ugh that is not going to be fun... not even a DOW to steal workers? I had to open my big mouth lol! Although it is not hard to manipulate the AI into DOWing you and after that it is fair game and I can go on a warpath!

well tbh those rules are for IMMORTAL! On deity I doubt you can afford to not use GM bombs (although I did not bulb any GS or GW on my last win mind you), but I'll allow bulbs too actually... (I'm not so mean)

And there is another way of getting great works... flipping cities! (you may sell it back for luxes to have it flip again)

Fine, you can war for money and workers... (but you can't conquer, only liberate if the DoW happens from your end, but if AI DoWs you then sure, they are the aggressor and they are fair game)
The difference is that if the DoW comes on AIs end, rest assured you will not catch them unprepared while their army is elsewhere so you will have to fight them straight.

Play the good guy: your empire is to be the crown jewel of the world, adored and loved by all and your archaeologists will leave mementos of your friendship in foreign lands!
(bonus points if you have ALL civs at "friendly" with you at the game's end, which sometimes I manage, sometimes I don't because some AIs are just inherently evil)

But as for me, of course, per your rules I will use and abuse bribes and I will backstab people... and overall be a jerk! (I really get a bad feeling down my gut whenever I betray a friend but I'm sure some warmongering games will soon get rid of that feeling!) I will become the "evil" hero like Cao Cao in the romance of the 3 kingdoms for once!

 

[nickytootricky]

Hey guys. So just to explain a few things, I'm going back to the DCLs late after living abroad. I'm recovering from illness at the moment and have some long days to waste playing Civ. I'm enjoying the DCLs as they offer a little more competitiveness. However I'm going for the harder ones first and using different strategies and VCs. I'm not the best deity player in the world, as I've said before I'm an intermediate deity player (I win almost every time on SV, most of the time on CV and Diplo, and about 50/50 on Dom). Whatever my level, I'm improving, thanks to the challenges and learning from you guys. I also like to try different things. If everyone else has gone for science (which are so easy for me by now, I'd say a 99% success rate), then I'd prefer a more difficult victory type. So in these DCLs I'm trying to do the challenges that noone has gone for. In this particular one nobody had won the Diplo victory so I went for it, using the Small Piety strategy, it wasn't the thing I'd have done normally with this roll (on the contrary, I'd have been down on Rome like a ton of bricks).

Interestingly for me, the Small Piety strategy actually didn't work that well this time because my culture, gold and production wasn't the best. But I still managed to pull it out of the bag, with quite a few votes to spare. I just made sure I DOWed Rome just in case I needed a few more CSs (hence the capital city being lost and science looking so bad). I agree my scouting was poor, first my laziness, second suddenly having enemies at unlucky times which prevented open borders and third the map was just plain annoying. One thing I did do which was good was make sure Alex was eliminated from the game. This cost me a lot of gold but it would have been a different ball game if I hadn't. I would have probably been able to do it though. I do also regret going full Rationalism before Patronage. You only really need enough science to get you to Plastics and by then you've probably already produced/have enough faith to produce the GSs to bulb you to Globalization. After that, it's just gold you need.

Of course the AI is rubbish, but that's the point: it's an AI, this is SP, not MP.

And remember we're all playing Civ cuz we enjoy it, for different reasons. I for one listen to the radio while I'm playing and find it extremely relaxing. Competitive spirit and will to improve is good but let's not cross the line...

 

[nickytootricky]

No offence but scouting is so bad you can't possibly have met all the CS, right?

A few DCLs ago you were saying my scouting was too good - I'm just trying to fit in

Na, you're right, various situations including my own laziness prevented me from scouting up there.

 

[nickytootricky]

despite being completely outclassed by the deity difficulty level itself.

Just reread this. Just to reiterate, despite not being the best deity player out there, to say I'm completely outclassed by deity difficulty is a bit harsh. I win most of the time on deity, and that's even when I almost always go for suboptimal strategies.

In this one, I let myself fall so far behind it was unreal. My NC wasn't up until T150, with an empire pop grand total of about 10. At the end I was like 20 techs behind Rome. But that was cuz it was the Small Piety strategy. To win from that position means it's ever so slightly overzealous to say I was outclassed. Deity AI is what it is, and most people don't win on Deity.

 

[kb27787]

Just reread this. Just to reiterate, despite not being the best deity player out there, to say I'm completely outclassed by deity difficulty is a bit harsh. I win most of the time on deity, and that's even when I almost always go for suboptimal strategies.

In this one, I let myself fall so far behind it was unreal. My NC wasn't up until T150, with an empire pop grand total of about 10. At the end I was like 20 techs behind Rome. But that was cuz it was the Small Piety strategy. To win from that position means it's ever so slightly overzealous to say I was outclassed. Deity AI is what it is, and most people don't win on Deity.

My apologies again; that was rather poor choice of words on my part. (though I was speaking in general, not specifically you, of course, that DV is somewhat cheesy)

Though mind you adwcta's strategy IS letting yourself get outclassed (as in you are not boxing in the same weight as the AI at all... being 20+ pop and dozens of techs behind), and yet still winning by a victory condition that is not at all contingent on outdoing the AI in science, military, or culture/tourism (nor even on gold as they probably have more gold than you).

Mind you, I doubt his strategy would suddenly fail if you had the urge to go "bigger" (as in taller although not so wide); piety does fine in that regard too. NC turn time is not really contingent on early SP so much (esp after the tradition nerf) and piety will be rather comparable to liberty in terms of tallness (and adwcta does not mention the religious tolerance bug, which in some cases is downright unbalanced in the right hands with the right dirt). Honor on the other hand, is another story.
Anyhow the gist of his strategy (manipulating ideologies, using religion as diplo booster, getting lots of gold from SP) is still completely applicable to a not-so-small empire, it's just that shooting for DV with this strat allows you to not worry about falling behind (although with piety you will probably be slower than tradition); not that you have to WILLINGLY fall behind on purpose, if you are ahead on tech too, the strategy works even better.

I agree that most people do not win on deity (posters here are a very small fraction of the people who have played and downloaded the game)

 

[consentient]

What I find most interesting about this particular discussion is the highlighting of how inconsistent the AI is.

When the AI is playing in a way actually conducive to winning, I think even pros would struggle to stop them.

DiploV = On my play though of this map, just I was getting labs up, Alex had ALL the CSs. He would have won on the first vote, I think.

SV = On my play through of DCL #12 (Maya), Pocatello went into the Modern around T150, and due to his Deity advantages, was able to play Full Rationalism and Order as well as conquer his continent at the same time. There was no way my tourism would have ever overtaken his culture. I think it was around 70k.

CV = I've never seen a Deity AI win this, but probably only because it is the slowest VC achievable by an AI, and if a culture player was influential with say, 5 civs, it probably means that another has built 5 parts and the SV will come first.

I think we can all agree that an AI winning DomV is not something we've ever seen, but we can all also agree that, as you were both beginning to concede, any VC is easy when you know how - i.e. have planned it methodically and practised it again and again.

My challenge to both of you is this: KB should win DomV before T220 and F.A. should win CV before T300. I think that's about equal in terms of challenge. Feel free to negotiate it yourselves hereafter.

But DON'T choose the Valentine's map for it. It's NOT a normal map at all. It's the most atypical map, atypical civ, I think one could choose. It's really just an Easter Egg. For Valentine's

@nickytootricky = Anyway, by my calculations, you have 4 finishes now. So just one more to be on the first page! Well done, and I hope you get well soon.

 

[IronfighterXXX]

I also like to try different things. If everyone else has gone for science (which are so easy for me by now, I'd say a 99% success rate), then I'd prefer a more difficult victory type. So in these DCLs I'm trying to do the challenges that noone has gone for. In this particular one nobody had won the Diplo victory so I went for it, using the Small Piety strategy,

Well, I'm pretty sure that nobody won diplo victory not because it's the hardest but it's just let's say the least respectable (just small science with weird timing).

Science victory is the easiest if you get it in ~300T, now try get sub 220T and you will see how easy it is. Actually if Firaxsis made deity AI were able winning sub 250T (what with theirs bonuses shouldn't be problem - just prioritize science tech, secularism, filling GP slots, etc) 90% deity players will move back to emperor

About small piety strategy.

I really hoped that this by far the worst 'strategy' on this forum gone into oblivion I link tommynt opinion on this 'strategy':

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13084273&postcount=20

I really miss Tommy (seems he abandonned civ) , he wasn't the friendliest person on earth but was usually right

 

[nickytootricky]

@nickytootricky = Anyway, by my calculations, you have 4 finishes now. So just one more to be on the first page! Well done, and I hope you get well soon.

Many thanks, consentient!

 

[nickytootricky]

I really hoped that this by far the worst 'strategy' on this forum gone into oblivion I link tommynt opinion on this 'strategy':

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13084273&postcount=20

I really miss Tommy (seems he abandonned civ) , he wasn't the friendliest person on earth but usually had right

Presumably what you mean is he "was usually right", in the sense that he was one iof the better players, which I'm sure he is/was. Maybe you can become the new tommy! You seem to be better than most of us, are obsessed by turn time instead of victory % (presumably because you're so good that you will win anyway), and can't seem to put yourself in the majority of civ (even Deity) player's shoes (which tommy was rather obnoxiously good at, if I remember).

I could go for lower science challenges but at the minute I find them boring. Do you understand?

 

[nickytootricky]

My apologies again; that was rather poor choice of words on my part. (though I was speaking in general, not specifically you, of course, that DV is somewhat cheesy)

No problem, mate. I did actually use the word cheesy in my first post as well btw

Though mind you adwcta's strategy IS letting yourself get outclassed (as in you are not boxing in the same weight as the AI at all... being 20+ pop and dozens of techs behind), and yet still winning by a victory condition that is not at all contingent on outdoing the AI in science, military, or culture/tourism (nor even on gold as they probably have more gold than you).

Mind you, I doubt his strategy would suddenly fail if you had the urge to go "bigger" (as in taller although not so wide); piety does fine in that regard too. NC turn time is not really contingent on early SP so much (esp after the tradition nerf) and piety will be rather comparable to liberty in terms of tallness (and adwcta does not mention the religious tolerance bug, which in some cases is downright unbalanced in the right hands with the right dirt). Honor on the other hand, is another story.
Anyhow the gist of his strategy (manipulating ideologies, using religion as diplo booster, getting lots of gold from SP) is still completely applicable to a not-so-small empire, it's just that shooting for DV with this strat allows you to not worry about falling behind (although with piety you will probably be slower than tradition); not that you have to WILLINGLY fall behind on purpose, if you are ahead on tech too, the strategy works even better.

It depends on what "dirt" you have of course. Spending hammers on an army to expand is extremely inefficient. In this case peaceful play with Rome was vital, so no crazy expansion towards/around them. You fall behind principally to establish your religion which is vital for gold and diplomatic relations. Try it yourself in a game where you're hemmed in by aggressive neighbours. In this game I played terribly but in the Dutch game I could have easily won a SV.