The Divine Request – Deity Walkthrough

[schwartz]

Sushi culture will be enough pretty soon. I'm currently in FS as well, so 100 culture per turn should be doable. But more importantly FR would cancel UoS and my recently added SM--you have to keep a state religion for them to work.

I might convert to Buddhism though (in order to control the AP).

I completely forgot about the UoS/SM.. Thanks for the quick answer.

 

[Rusten]

Great game Rusten!

Haven't had a chance to look at the saves but a masterly demonstration of diplomacy:
1) planning the friendlies from the start and ignoring the WFYABTA with them while at the same time getting a few trades in with the odd man out.

2) using the spiritual trait to keep Peter at friendly to get some drafting in but avoid a potential risk to your game.


Of course you showcased the required attention to detail and strong planning as well
thanks for the lesson(s).

Thanks for the kind words.

I am a bit curious about your opinion on the SOL.
Normally you have copper and typically if you don't build it your most advanced opponent will.
So that's something like +10 specs for you and maybe -12 for them.
That's a pretty big swing IMHO in a space game.
Agreed it's not worth it if you're going to roll up the continent in a dom game.

Maybe I don't like it because I rarely win by space. I tend to go for a diplomatic victory to save time after a game is won, but I can see the SoL making a difference in an even game. Still, I don't think I'd target it actively and research Democracy. The main problem with the wonder IMHO is that it's unlocked at a time when there's so much else to do. You might be busy with a renaissance war and if not then there's the issue of unlocking Biology--getting those improved farms earlier might be more of a boost than to spend 750-1500 hammers on the SoL. I don't generally put up as many cottages as you though so maybe that's a point making our opinions differ. If you get Democracy via trade it's probably another story (what happened here--so I went for it) because you can both unlock Biology and get the wonder without dropping the other.

Regarding the -12 for your main opponent--I don't think it's that big of a deal. The AIs almost never run representation unless it's their favourite civic, so the 12 specialists aren't that effective. There aren't that many turns left after the wonder is up and running either.

Did you scout Pacal's territory for his army before deciding on the split of forces or did you just figure you'd get there fast enough anyway?--did Pacal blow his Sod against Ham?

Yea, I scouted his cities knowing that he had no SoD up north-east. Pacal hardly sent a unit towards Hammurabi (had a chariot scouting there), so that war had no effect on outcome--I was the one killing all of his stacks.

 

[Rusten]

I CBA to go into great detail for the finish this time either. Feel free to ask about any specifics I don’t mention that you wonder about though—I don’t mind responding to precise questions.

I start the round by gifting Steel to Pacal and tell him to research Artillery. I decide to revolt to US. My science rate will drop a little, but I really want the extra production in Lakamha—it’s going to need a lot of stuff (sushi executive, bank+WS and science multipliers).

I also convert to Buddhism. Every city has the religion, every city has the temple already (UoS and SM) due to AP bonus and furthermore I’m not the founder so I get less diplo hits from AIs in other religions. Situations like this is why I love the spiritual trait—you’re so flexible.

Turn 202 / 1420 AD
Pop a GA in Tenochtitlan.

Turn 203 / 1430 AD
Sushi in Lakamha.

Turn 204 / 1440 AD
Slave revolt in Tenochtitlan.

The following turn I get the random event for coal plants and drydocks—I pick coal plant +4.

Turn 206 / 1460 AD
AP vote between me and Hammurabi—I won by a huge margin.

A couple of turns later Peter has adopted SP so I adopt FM for trade routes and lower corporation costs.

Turn 211 / 1505 AD
Random event for Tenochtitlan—pay 142 gold and get +3 health and 1 free scientist.

Going to put my IW in this city, it has a lot of possible production.

Strangely enough Peter did not declare on Hammurabi yet despite having much more power. At this point I realised that he might be after me after all (and he was). This was really bad luck because I had about the same power as Hammurabi and was bumping between pleased and friendly while Peter was annoyed towards Hammurabi—Bah!

Turn 222 / 1560 AD
What seemed more and more likely unravels—Peter DoW. Fortunately I saw it coming in time, so 5-10 turns before this I had revolted to Nationhood and drafted some infantry. At this point I also have a factory and a coal plant in my HE city so I’m popping out 1 infantry per turn—Peter shouldn’t be able to do any damage.

Turn 223 / 1565 AD
Bribe Zara into the war for Biology. While Peter is unlikely to be able to harm me I still want the war to end as it will slow down my space victory. Furthermore Zara/Peter are the only big AIs who are not in mercantilism, so this puts an end to their trade routes as well. I adopt mercantilism myself.

Turn 226 / 1580 AD
Swapping to Buddhism pays off—I get to pick the AP vote and call to stop the war vs. Rusten.

Turn 227 / 1585 AD
The vote succeeds. I would be able to sign peace soon anyway as I’m killing all of his stacks entering my territory with airships and infantry/cavalry but this saves a tech (and speeds it up a turn or two).

Turn 230 / 1600 AD
Pacal has finished his assignment (Artillery). I bribe him into Buddhism (gets him to friendly) and make a trade. I give him Electricity and Medicine for it (Electricity gives him more commerce from his windmills and Medicine will let him grow his cities more (lacking resources)). I tell him to research Fission next.

Turn 239 / 1645 AD
Settle a filler city south of Mutal for some remaining river tiles and gold.

Turn 241 / 1655 AD
Decide to start my 1st GA (GS).

Start on Apollo and adopt Enviromentalism a couple of turns later. I have a lot of windmills and health is becoming an issue. Furthermore I have open borders with Peter again.

Turn 257 / 1735 AD
Start my second GA (GS+GA).

Turn 261 / 1755 AD
Pacal has finished his assignment so I bribe him back into religion to avoid WFYABTA and pull the trigger on a trade for Fission.

Turn 265 / 1775 AD
Start my 3rd GA (GS+GA+GE). The GE came from Fusion—I just have Ecology and Genetics left now.

The AIs can’t keep up with me. I’ve avoided Computers (obsoletes UoS and SM) and Mass Media (obsoletes the AP). Fortunately there are alternative paths in the tech tree.

Turn 270 / 1800 AD
I bribe Peter into war with Ragnar just in case. I finished the required techs now so it’s time to shut off research. I queue up tanks and basically do nothing but press shift+enter from this point and onwards.

Turn 273 / 1806 AD
Somebody sabotages one of my engines—Bah, that means 2 extra turns.

Turn 275 / 1810 AD
Ready to launch.

And thus on turn 287 / 1834 AD

That’s it for this game. I was hoping that it would be a more interesting/nail biter finish this time, but the game went very well so nobody came close. Pacal was the top contender and after capitulating him the game was easy.

 

[Hodory]

Incredible victory and very educational as always.

Thank you for posting this up. It was very easy to follow, but I am still reading through it over with your saved game file and trying to see what it is that separates a really good player from an average player like myself.

This will take some time, and once I come up with something that is intelligent enough of a question or two, I will post.

Thanks again.

 

[BornSlippy]

I'll pay you to lick your shoes.

 

[ranion]

i gotta say, i dont know that i ever quite realized how impressive the output of windmills could be in the right situation. you seem to be getting a good deal of everything out of them, care to elaborate on your opinion of thier overall usefulness, ie: when do you build them? or do you just not bother to replace them with something else when you capture them? from the looks of it being able to have a 2f4h6c tile is definatly something to drool over.

 

[Rusten]

Incredible victory and very educational as always.

Thank you for posting this up. It was very easy to follow, but I am still reading through it over with your saved game file and trying to see what it is that separates a really good player from an average player like myself.

This will take some time, and once I come up with something that is intelligent enough of a question or two, I will post.

Thanks again.

Let me know if you want more save files. I didn't save anything of the last set, but I should have some intermediate ones earlier on.

I'll pay you to lick your shoes.

i gotta say, i dont know that i ever quite realized how impressive the output of windmills could be in the right situation. you seem to be getting a good deal of everything out of them, care to elaborate on your opinion of thier overall usefulness, ie: when do you build them? or do you just not bother to replace them with something else when you capture them? from the looks of it being able to have a 2f4h6c tile is definatly something to drool over.

I love windmills to no end. Most of the windmills are put up by me after Replaceble Parts (+1 hammer). Once electricity is in they're great even without enviromentalism. They shine during GAs as they have both hammer and commerce output and given that they're instant (unlike towns) it's probably my favourite improvement in the game--only beaten by watermills in games where SP is the better pick.

 

[URSExelcior]

Thanks for the game. Looking forward to more.

 

[Yesod]

If you play another one though make it a regular start. With that beautifull land the A.I. bonuses for deity are considerably trimmed down. Also I never imagined being able to get away with seven units till the renaissance... Tight fit meant no barbs and your neighboors loved you, definitely not a good random sample.

Good game though; definitely learned alot of small things, and thats all that matters in this game.

 

[Rusten]

If you play another one though make it a regular start. With that beautifull land the A.I. bonuses for deity are considerably trimmed down.

What beautiful land? I wasn't able to settle any cities in the grassland jungle because Peter boxed me in and I had to resort to small-sized cities with a bunch of desert tiles in their BFC. My capital was good, but the rest of the land was pretty standard. I don't understand how a map could get any more regular than a "continents" style with a 4/3 player mix.

Also I never imagined being able to get away with seven units till the renaissance... Tight fit meant no barbs and your neighboors loved you, definitely not a good random sample.

No barbs? Pacal built the GW and I had a lot of archers moving into my territory because of it. I even unlocked the Heroic Epic pre 1500 BC IIRC and that wasn't the only chariot beating 3-4 archers.

Bad sample? You should always try to get people to friendly, that's nothing extreme--this happens in the majority of my games. Also, you can't expect to copy deity games--you can get several sample games, but the reality is that every game is different and requires a different solution from the previous. I could play 5 more games and you'd probably find something making it poor examples in those too because that's the way it is on high levels--you leverage what the map gives you.

 

[DanF5771]

... I could play 5 more games ...

YEAH, go for it!
But then again, you should probably think about moving up in difficulty level, this seems to be far too easy for you.

I was surprised that Pacal had a solid power advantage over Peter (not my usual experience) although Peter was in WHEOOHRN and building up to DoW Hammu.

Very impressive game.
I was wondering whether the accumulation of idling GPs over the game might be somewhat unprofitable but you proofed otherwise.

 

[shyuhe]

Well played Rusten! The speed with which you took out Pacal's cities really sealed the game I think. Keeping the war short and efficient let you reap the most benefit of stealing his cities.

And I have to agree - the land on this map was pretty sub-standard. I'm surprised Gilgamesh didn't become more of a factor with all the land that he got to himself.

 

[ungy]

Nice finish and a very impressive demonstration of space.
I especially liked getting more tech out of Pacal with the directed research and religion bribe.

Don't think I've ever seen Apollo in 4 before!

Hope you enjoyed it as you've got a whole bunch of folks hoping you do another.

that's the way it is on high levels--you leverage what the map gives you.

not only words of wisdom but what makes civ a great game.

 

[ungy]

If you play another one though make it a regular start. With that beautifull land the A.I. bonuses for deity are considerably trimmed down. Also I never imagined being able to get away with seven units till the renaissance... Tight fit meant no barbs and your neighboors loved you, definitely not a good random sample.

what are you smoking?
You don't mention the only break he got (and it was huge!) which was the way the religion broke on his landmass. Put two different religions on his border and things get more complicated.

 

[mystyfly]

Great game, Rusten, as well as interesting writeup. Anyone who wants to learn about diplomacy really should play a couple of games with spiritual and those who think this trait is weak should be shown your games.

Will we see another aztec / deity game? Probabely on another map would be nice - maybe test the new "tectonics" map?

 

[Rusten]

Well played Rusten! The speed with which you took out Pacal's cities really sealed the game I think. Keeping the war short and efficient let you reap the most benefit of stealing his cities.

And I have to agree - the land on this map was pretty sub-standard. I'm surprised Gilgamesh didn't become more of a factor with all the land that he got to himself.

Thanks and I fully agree--haste is usually a deciding factor. I was somewhat surprised by Gilgamesh as well, but in his defence he had some desert areas too.

Hope you enjoyed it as you've got a whole bunch of folks hoping you do another.

I enjoy all civ games and this was certainly no exception.

not only words of wisdom but what makes civ a great game.

Ditto. I never seem to get bored of this game because in order to play optimal every game will be different.

Will we see another aztec / deity game? Probabely on another map would be nice - maybe test the new "tectonics" map?

Don't want to make any promises, but I'm not refuting the idea either. As long as I get positive feedback and the impression that people enjoy my games then I will probably continue in the future.

I will probably play a different civilization if there's a follow-up (although no promises here either ). I can leave discussion on the map in the event of a follow-up open but I doubt I'll be using "tectonics" because from what I've seen there seems to be too much plains and varying quality of land making it rather luck-based. I didn't try the map though (still in 3.13 due to SGs) so maybe I'm wrong--I just looked at some general screenshots of land and capital locations and they didn't seem balanced to me.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

There are a lot of settings with tectonics. You can pick wet and there won't be as much in terms of plains. Resource balance I can't say after playing it what, 3 times total? Randomized earth is HUGE, even if you set it to standard size btw. My friend and I learned this as I went looking to knock heads early, only to find room for about 16 cities worth of peaceful expansion - I had "africa" to myself?! At least kublai khan is creative. Comically I'd accidently set the map script to "arid". Global tech rate was ASTOUNDINGLY poor since MP ais are noble (can't we make them harder?!), land was terrible, my friend is still a rookie, and everyone was expanding with minimal contact for most of the BC's.

After taking a 50 gold shrine I ran away in tech of course since other than my friend there was no competent competition and he really isn't the same level yet and had a smaller empire.

Anyway Rusten, I like your games a lot. I'm trying to figure out where you're getting such ridiculous beaker counts so early from. As I said in another thread, I would run away in tech on emperor with just a fraction of that tech power, so I'm trying to figure out how you do it (understandably games vary, but you can't tech TOO poorly in any game...).

 

[JBossch]

Great Deity win! Might I humbly request you use another civ for your next write-up? I get the impression that whipping is an integral part of your strategy, especially early on, and I think it would be interesting to see the difference without sacrificial alters. I have always whipped a lot but I am getting even better after reading your walk-throughs. For example, the first thing I noticed upon loading your saves was how much more infrastructure your cities had compared to mine in the same era. Abusing the whip more than normal, and at the right times, has helped my games enormously.
Q: At about what point did you switch out of slavery for good? When AIs started running emancipation? Or was the unhappiness penalty not an issue?

Also, you really seem to get a lot of mileage out of spiritual trait. I've always thought it was a pretty good trait (when I can remember I have it ) but you really leverage it. You mention some major civic swaps but are you sneaking in periods of CS/Pac for GP production? (Can be especially powerful when you have no army like you did in the early part of this game.) I so rarely find myself playing a spiritual civ and it makes me really focused on perfectly timing 2-civic swaps and the like, often holding off on important switches to avoid the anarchy.

So I guess I am asking for another deity game with a non-Aztec and non-spiritual civ. I'm sure you can handle it, but it might make for an interesting comparison.

Thanks again for the great walk-through and good luck on the next!

 

[Rusten]

Great Deity win! Might I humbly request you use another civ for your next write-up? I get the impression that whipping is an integral part of your strategy, especially early on, and I think it would be interesting to see the difference without sacrificial alters. I have always whipped a lot but I am getting even better after reading your walk-throughs. For example, the first thing I noticed upon loading your saves was how much more infrastructure your cities had compared to mine in the same era. Abusing the whip more than normal, and at the right times, has helped my games enormously.
Q: At about what point did you switch out of slavery for good? When AIs started running emancipation? Or was the unhappiness penalty not an issue?

Also, you really seem to get a lot of mileage out of spiritual trait. I've always thought it was a pretty good trait (when I can remember I have it ) but you really leverage it. You mention some major civic swaps but are you sneaking in periods of CS/Pac for GP production? (Can be especially powerful when you have no army like you did in the early part of this game.) I so rarely find myself playing a spiritual civ and it makes me really focused on perfectly timing 2-civic swaps and the like, often holding off on important switches to avoid the anarchy.

So I guess I am asking for another deity game with a non-Aztec and non-spiritual civ. I'm sure you can handle it, but it might make for an interesting comparison.

Thanks again for the great walk-through and good luck on the next!

One of the reasons I picked Aztec for these 2 games was that most people don't whip enough and if I whip a little extra they're more likely to see a difference and add it to their reportoire. That said, it won't make a big difference for me whether I play a different civ. Less than 10% of my games are played with the Aztec overall and I do the same thing there--the only difference is that with other civs I'm more careful about whipping with 2-3 pops. With the Aztecs you can 1-pop whip most of the time and still don't suffer with unhappiness so it just reduces micro-management, whipping itself isn't that much more powerful because usually the main problem isn't the unhappiness, but having small cities not working tiles. Whipping is an integral part of my overall play, but that goes with any civ, not just the Aztec one.

I switched out of slavery after maturing the captured cities a little (granary, leevee and forge)--I was starting to get some unhappiness and would have to use the culture slider otherwise.

Regarding spiritual--no I didn't sneak in CS/pacifism. This would be strong play, but I was too lazy--I'm not a big micro-manager, I usually put my effort and thoughts into making good decisions rather than small micro tricks and crunching numbers. Maybe that's why I love spiritual so much, I don't feel the need to do this kind of stuff which might kill the fun for some people. I love using spiritual for strategical reasons as displayed in this game but not for heavy MM.

You can have your wish--if there's a next one I'll stay away from the spiritual trait.

 

[Rusten]

Anyway Rusten, I like your games a lot. I'm trying to figure out where you're getting such ridiculous beaker counts so early from. As I said in another thread, I would run away in tech on emperor with just a fraction of that tech power, so I'm trying to figure out how you do it (understandably games vary, but you can't tech TOO poorly in any game...).

How I get my research varies from game to game. This time I benefited greatly from running scientists early for the academy accompanied by running 2 scientists in addition to the GL. Once I got bureaucracy I gained even more from the academy. Most of my research came from the 4 scientists, bureaucracy and the early academy in Tenochtitlan. Having the willpower to keep running scientists early on and tolerate losing some production usually pays off over time--GPP is incredibly effective for your first GPs.