The Divine Request – Deity Walkthrough

[Rusten]

From my experience, a phant/cats war is doable on Immortal, on Deity, it is a huge risk since the AIs have many more advanced units.

For starters, we will be facing Mace/LB/xbow/pikes/knights by the time we set up our forces.

This also means we will sacrifice lots of hammers for units, lower slider to pay for the army and if war does not go well, science will be hopelessly behind other AIs.

The most reliable method i know is concentrate on getting 6-8 good cities by REXing and from Barbs; whip infrustructure grow population; nurture good relationships with AIs; Get GL and bulb key techs until liberalism and only consider war after Rifling. Sounds boring but it has been the most proven path to win on Deity.

I agree that warring with or after Rifling is a good bet on deity, but I think the secret to winning regularly on this level is to take advantage of whatever you got and leverage the map. Sure, if you play 50 deity games then a clear majority of those will have better odds with a post-rifling war than a pre-rifling war, but there are exceptions, and I believe this is one of those maps where something different could prove superior.

Why I believe this is an exception to a usual approach:

- Aggressive trait helps (easy cover promotion and free combat I for axes, longbows are less of a problem).
- Jaguars (I can heal my troops quickly even before I get a GG medic saving a lot of time)
- Commerce (I have 2 sources of gold, a pretty decent river and a good capital so I will be able to research the required techs quite quickly which means an earlier war and an earlier recovery of my economy.
- Sacrificial Altar (Will be able to whip out an army faster and suffer less from unhappy citizens (can afford war weariness))
- My neighbours (especially Pacal) are peaceful and/or wonderhogs and bound to have much less units than a regular deity AI.
- I have a "second UU" (ivory)
- Early marble, forested and production-heavy capital and early commerce (means I'll get the GL/NE up quickly so there's a big chance I can keep some tech trading going on with GSs while warring)

Not that I've decided what to do yet, I'm still weighing pros and cons. It is as mentioned earlier a very challenging map and I want to make sure I have it all covered before making any big moves.

My current city plan (might get changed around before I play though) is to settle:

1W of the northern cows ->
on the plains hill for the 2 fish ->
1S of the wheat enabling the gold+food (might change that if something is revealed in the fog) ->
1W of the northern fishes nearby the stone.

This would bring me 6 cities assuming I get all the spots, but I might lose the northern one to Pacal, we'll see. I might not have time for that last one either, but it will have coastal fish in its first ring, which makes it much more attractive than if I'd need culture there.

P.s If I decide to head for an early war I might skip the northern spot (1W of the cows) as it doesn't have that many good tiles, it just has a lot of resources for later. If I don't settle it Pacal will and I'll get it anyway. I also probably won't have time for 6 cities, but rather 4 or 5.

To be honest the more I look at the situation the more I'm starting to favor skipping the northern spot and settle the wheat+gold+flood plains+stone spot and 1W of the fish also getting a flood plain and a grassland hill. These cities will get whipped a lot and could really turn the tables for me in an early war. Furthermore, they are productive right away, no need for a monument to get started.

 

[ABigCivFan]

If you are going for a phant/Cats war, I would fully expect Pacal to put up a very tough fight for you with knights/lb/xbow/mace and maybe pikes. He will have 3-4 times of you power. His knights will be able to Flank your cats, and he can replenish his losses much faster than you. You might be able to take 1-2 cities initially with concentrated forces, but will be very very hard to keep the pressure on him give all the handicaps. I would suggest running some spies to pillage all his strategical resources. Also throw in some CR Axe/Jags. Although a huge gambit in my books, but it will be interesting to see you carry it out. As you said, Altar+Aggressive+Spiritual can help greatly.

On the other hand, with a HE city like the capital and a Globle city dafting Aggressive rifles/Infantry fighing AI units from the same Era, life will be much easier.

Edit: I realized it is a bit early to talk about an all-out phant/cats war given now the top priority is how to settle 6 good cities which i think you still have a good chance.

As you said, first rob Peter that Rice+horse+fish spot, then next claim spice+Gold which pays for itself, then fish+stone+floods; then next to Capital Fish+Marble. That is already 6 decent cities.

Hold off on fogbusing to the north and hope barb will settle a city (high Maint though) for you.

 

[JBossch]

C'mon, you know you wanna go for it.

I agree with skipping 1W of the cows. I still think you should do the plains hill for 2xfish/marble. Not sure if you were still planning on this one.

 

[obsolete]

Hmm, Sacrificial Altar with Aggressive trait. I would think after CoL, this could get quite fun.

 

[Rusten]

If you are going for a phant/Cats war, I would fully expect Pacal to put up a very tough fight for you with knights/lb/xbow/mace and maybe pikes. He will have 3-4 times of you power. His knights will be able to Flank your cats, and he can replenish his losses much faster than you. You might be able to take 1-2 cities initially with concentrated forces, but will be very very hard to keep the pressure on him give all the handicaps. I would suggest running some spies to pillage all his strategical resources. Also throw in some CR Axe/Jags. Although a huge gambit in my books, but it will be interesting to see you carry it out. As you said, Altar+Aggressive+Spiritual can help greatly.

On the other hand, with a HE city like the capital and a Globle city dafting Aggressive rifles/Infantry fighing AI units from the same Era, life will be much easier.

Edit: I realized it is a bit early to talk about an all-out phant/cats war given now the top priority is how to settle 6 good cities which i think you still have a good chance.

As you said, first rob Peter that Rice+horse+fish spot, then next claim spice+Gold which pays for itself, then fish+stone+floods; then next to Capital Fish+Marble. That is already 6 decent cities.

Hold off on fogbusing to the north and hope barb will settle a city (high Maint though) for you.

Think you're overestimating Pacal a little. He's not going to have engineering and guilds when I strike unless something strange happens. There isn't a very big time window, but the thing is that I'm bordering his holy Hindu city and could grab that one right away. Afterwards I should be able to strike towards his capital effectively cutting his empire into two. By doing this he will get crippled and if/when he gets to engineering/guilds he's not going to be able to make that many units. I should also have a GG medic pretty soon attached to a jaguar, and that unit can heal everything very quickly, even catapults.

Someone like Pacal isn't going to have 3-4 times more power than me, Shaka might, but not Pacal. I find that there is a lot of synergy by going for an early war, everything fits so it would be a waste not to give it a try.

 

[Rusten]

Played a little further and things are going very smooth. I doubt you'll see an early war with elephants though, some things came up that made me weigh other options as better. It was a promising idea at 1900 BC, but not anymore.

Report ETA: unknown, but I'll try to have it up today.

 

[obsolete]

I have faith in you Rusten.

BTW, Flo wants some input from you in the 'other' deity thread.

 

[DanF5771]

I'm still weighing pros and cons.

IMHO the biggest con against an early (pre-Engineering) war with 1 units is:
GAMESPEED_NORMAL.

 

[Snaaty]

Hi Rusten, for doing this.

Some quick estimations:

Pacal is usually easy prey and doesnt expand much. If you settle towards him aggressively, you should be able to expand to something like 8 cities and squeeze him in and he will still build some nice wonders for you. Peter on the other hand will turn into a problem. He expands and has a strong mil. backed by a solid research... ...with the stone, marble and 2 gold you have I would def. delay warring because then you might have a chance to hit Peter with renessance units unprepaired... ...but let´s see how things develop... ...usually they turn out quite different then expected

Just found out about this thread thanks to Flo´s hint in our SG

...

EDIT:

Just had a closer look at your screens:
By settling 9 from the left wheat you can block off Pacal completely from your part of the world (after first borderpop, so chopping a monument should have high prio) and grab a pretty strong spot there... ...might be way to go and leaves you with enough spots for later settling

 

[royal62184]

Hi Rusten, for doing this.

Just had a closer look at your screens:
By settling 9 from the left wheat you can block off Pacal completely from your part of the world (after first borderpop, so chopping a monument should have high prio) and grab a pretty strong spot there... ...might be way to go and leaves you with enough spots for later settling

Could you go into a little more detail. I couldn't figure out what you were saying. Looking at his last screenshot of the northern region this is what I came up with.

This city placement w/ one border pop, your gold/sheep city w/ one border pop, and the mountains would seal pacal off. Is this what you are saying?

 

[ABigCivFan]

Royal, that city probably will run into cultural problems, blocking Pacal is a good idea.

@Rusten. I think Pacal will pose the biggest threat economically given his holy city+Financial trait. In case he builds GLH/Colossus, the problem will be bigger. I would befriend Peter and Hamu and look for opportunity to slow Pacal down.

One good chance I see is right after bulbing Education. Trade for Machinary and Engineering. So you can do a mobile Mace/Treb/Pike war instead of phant/Cats war . And see if Peter and Hamu could be bribed into war with Pacal, a double team could double the chances for a successful war. Capital is probably the best spot for HE, we will need it. I had a Jag gaining 10xp fighting Barbs to open HE.

If Peter can attack Pacal in the South, you can go straight for Pacal's Holy city for the shrine. And I know when Peter attacks he will bring along a huge SOD.

 

[Rusten]

Turn 55 / 1800 BC
Whip a granary in Teotihuacan.

Turn 57 / 1720 BC
Finished researching writing. I put production in Tenochtitlan to another worker after the settler and whip it this turn for overflow into a granary followed by a library.

Turn 58 / 1680 BC
I ended up with this location for my 3rd city. There were many options, including a city to the far north, but I went for this one as it has 3 great tiles. I will probably put my GT here. Unhealthy when settled, but I hooked it up to my capital 2-3 turns later.

I didn’t want to go through the trouble of blocking north while settling south, I’d have to sacrifice a lot for it. When deciding I was also still considering an early war. By settling down here first I can take my time settling another city because Pacal isn’t going to settle the eastern wheat and gold any time soon, there are other city spots in between. With this in mind I decided to run 2 specialists in Tenochtitlan for an early GS. This means less production, but an early academy is definitely worth it, I’m going to be able to settle 6 decent cities here anyway as you’ll see.

Turn 61 / 1560 BC
One of my chariots reach 10 experience—nice! This means the HE is unlocked making war preparations much easier.

Turn 65 / 1400 BC
Hinduism spreads to Teotihuacan—I convert immediately for relations with my 2 neighbours, I won’t have to worry about Hammurabi as he won’t have open borders with Peter and Pacal and I’m going to be blocked in by them pretty soon.

Turn 67 / 1320 BC
A GG has been born in a far away land! Yikes! Seeing as it’s only 1320 BC I’m guessing Ragnar or Shaka is in the game.

Turn 70 / 1200 BC
The Oracle has been built in a far away land. That’s very late for deity, so Pacal is probably the only industrious leader around.

Turn 73 / 1080 BC
Another GG has been born in a far away land.
Pacal finished Alphabet the coming turn.

Turn 77 / 950 BC
Settle Texcoco 1S of the eastern wheat, I’ve finished a road and have 2 workers ready to farm the floods and wheat.

Turn 80 / 875 BC
Finish Aesthetics and start putting some beakers into the Alphabet to enable trading.

Turn 82 / 825 BC
Peter has been able to unlock his jungle resources, I make a trade.

Trade Aesthetics to Pacal for Alphabet. Peter also has knowledge of the Alphabet. Hammurabi didn’t even research writing yet.

Peter/Pacal are friendly already, so I should try to mostly trade when I can trade with both at the same time in the future.
- Give Peter Aesthetics for IW and discover iron in Teotihuacan’s BFC—sweet!

Turn 83 / 800 BC
Pacal gets a great spy.
I decide to make the following deal with Hammurabi.

While Polytheism is a very cheap tech and you reach WFYABTA very early on deity I went for it anyway because:
- I get literature / GL+NE much earlier
- reduced risk of losing the GL
- I share religion with Pacal and Peter and I am probably going to be running their favourite civic in the future (HR and Bureaucracy) so I will have friendly status -> no WFYABTA.

Turn 84 / 775 BC
1st GS pops -> academy in Tenochtitlan as I will have a decent slider % in the near future, settling wouldn’t be as good. With aid of the early GS I’m currently getting 70 beakers per turn losing 16 gold.

Here’s a look at Pacal’s lands, I’ve scouted him with a chariot (currently scouting Peter). It might be hard to tell from the screen, but his capital is on a hill.

Turn 87 / 700 BC
2-3 turns until I have Literature and 2-3 turns remaining on the settler and 1 turn left on hooking up marble. You probably guessed it, I’m going to whip the settler and use the overflow into the GL. The settler will found a city (Tlaxcala) 1W of the fish nearby the stone.

Turn 89 / 650 BC
Peter lightbulbs philosophy—bleh!

Turn 90 / 625 BC
Pacal completes the SoZ—bleh! At this point I decide against an early war. There’s more to gain by peaceful tech trading as I will get both Pacal and Peter to friendly soon.

Turn 93 / 550 BC
Aesthetics+Alphabet to Hammurabi for Monarchy+Monotheism. A good deal for him, but I’m very happy as well. Both Peter and Pacal had all of these techs already except for Monotheism and I can revolt to OR immediately (love the spiritual trait) speeding up the GL+NE. Set research to Currency, CoL can wait as philosophy has already been claimed (Peter).

Turn 96 / 475 BC
I Finished the GL in Tenochtitlan and start on the NE.

Turn 97 / 450 BC
Peter asks for Monotheism -> I give it to him.

Turn 101 / 350 BC
Finished the NE and notice the Parthenon is still up for grabs—I give it a go and finish it successfully a little later with a chop or two.

Turn 103 / 300 BC
Currency completed, I start on CoL. I ask Peter for 40 gold and sell him fish for 6 gpt. I decide to hold off on any trades as there aren’t any interesting techs up for grabs atm.

Turn 105 / 250 BC

Pacal is bumped to friendly, he’s now willing to trade monopoly techs.
- Currency+Literature+5gold to Pacal for MC.
- Currency to Peter for Mathematics and 50 gold.

As mentioned earlier, I’m trying to trade with both of them at the same time to avoid trading between the two.

Turn 106 / 225 BC
- MC+5gold to Peter for Calendar.

Turn 108 / 175 BC
Hammurabi just got a lot of money on his hands, I decide to sell him Calendar for it (310 gold).
- Corn to Pacal for 10 gpt.

Turn 109 / 150 BC
Settle Calixtlahuaca, the 6th city, I have what I need now. I will probably put Moai Statues there.

Turn 113 / 50 BC
- MC+5 gold to Hammurabi for Construction.
- Next turn I sell him gold for 7 gpt.

Turn 115 / 1AD
- Finished CS and nobody has it yet—set research to Paper.

Turn 116 / 25 AD
Both Peter and Pacal have Machinery and Music researched, this is a nice match, I decide to trade with both of them at the same time again.
- CS+130 gold to Pacal for Machinery
- CS to Peter for Music.

Getting Machinery means I won’t be able to lightbulb Liberalism, but I went for it anyway as I feel confident in getting to Liberalism first regardless. I wanted Music because I’m going to need it for MT soon.

Turn 118 / 75 AD
Spawn my 3rd GS. Forgot to write it down when I got the previous one (he’s been idling).

Turn 119 / 100 AD
I start on the HE in Teotihuacan. With the Aztecs it’s a very good idea to put the HE in a city with both a lot of hammers and a lot of food as you can whip much more than otherwise. I’ve irrigated the grassland river tiles and it has iron, cows, wheat and gold as hammers. Tenochtitlan would be a good spot too.

Turn 120 / 125 AD
Finish Paper and lightbulb Education with my 2 GSs. I decided to stop here for now. The set has been quite long, but it was played out very quickly, so I didn’t bother stopping earlier. Not that much action as it has been a very peaceful Hindu love-fest.

I’m probably going to get the UoS in Tenochtitlan next. Regarding war, I will probably aim for Cuirassiers and something else. I’m not sure about the something else yet, that depends on what tech paths the AIs go for and such. It could simply be muskets+trebs or it could be cannons and rifles. The only thing that’s certain is that I’m going to get started on the Globe and attack someone soon.

Overall a pretty good round for the Aztec people, but I have one major regret, I forgot to make 2-3 jaguars and save them for medics. I’m not used to trading for Machinery so early and completely forgot about it. As you can see the Pyramids aren't necessary for a SE, you can keep up with the AIs without it as well.

Leader relations are very satisfying atm. Hammurabi is furious towards Peter IIRC and he can't reach me with any land units (cautious relations btw) while I am friendly with both Peter and Pacal. As a result I haven't been getting any military and rather focus on infrastructure aided by the UB and OR. Successfully landing the Parthenon helped a great deal for this as that meant pacifism was less necessary. Furthermore I didn't want to lightbulb Philosophy as I wouldn't have been able to trade much with it as Peter got there first.

I'm only pleased with Peter right now, but I'm going to bribe him into bureaucracy in a couple of turns putting him to friendly in order to trade for philosophy.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm looking and I still can't understand where the beakers are coming from. I see a bunch of somewhat low-pop cities and a strong capitol...most of the beakers are there? Settled GS's/academy/GL are driving most of that research? I usually don't get 200 BPT until closer to the 1400's and that's good enough to win on emperor often. Are Immortal and Deity THAT different ?

Education near 100 AD is pretty incredible.

One final note: Pacal isn't industrious .

 

[DanF5771]

I have one major regret, I forgot to make 2-3 jaguars and save them for medics. I’m not used to trading for Machinery so early and completely forgot about it.

Self-pillage your Iron -- Jags are resourceless.
204 beakers/turn @ 125AD = very impressive!

 

[Rusten]

One final note: Pacal isn't industrious .

Geez, thanks! Wonder what I've been smoking today, I've been considering him Ind/Fin.

Self-pillage your Iron -- Jags are resourceless.

Excellent idea!

 

[royal62184]

Just some general questions so I understand a little better. I just wanting to know your thought process for a city and make sure I understand what your doing.

Teotihuacan - production/military; you are farming the grassland so in the future you can work the mines to get more production or to run some specialist? You choose this as a production city because of the gold/sheep/iron in the BFC i'm guessing.

Capital - typical Bur cottage capital it looks like. I'm guessing you farm just to do chain irragation down to Tlateloco or to support some specialist?

Tlateloco/Tlaxcala/Calix - no idea, i'm guessing you are just farm there and just run some specialist. No real specialization or am i missing something?

City up north - no idea (couldn't find a screenshot of the city up north

I have only mastered the CE on emperor, I can do it pretty well. Only recently have I started trying a SE so pardon my noobish questions I guess my biggest question is how do you do city specialization in a SE for cities like Tlateloco/Tlaxcala/Calix? In a CE, it was easy. If i have the grasslands/food to support cottages then it would be a commerce/beaker/money city. If i didn't I would turn it into a production city typically.

 

[Rusten]

Just some general questions so I understand a little better. I just wanting to know your thought process for a city and make sure I understand what your doing.

Teotihuacan - production/military; you are farming the grassland so in the future you can work the mines to get more production or to run some specialist? You choose this as a production city because of the gold/sheep/iron in the BFC i'm guessing.

Whipping is the best source of production early in the game and up until industrial times, even more so with the Aztecs. You will see it in action when I go to war, I will probably get 2 cuirassiers every 3 turns because I will start one and then whip it the next turn and there will be enough overflow to almost complete another one the next turn.

Capital - typical Bur cottage capital it looks like. I'm guessing you farm just to do chain irragation down to Tlateloco or to support some specialist?

I'm probably going to farm everything there except for the river tiles for scientists. I put down cottages because it had enough food to support 2 scientists either way. I'm running scientists in Tenochtitlan all game except when getting wonders.

Tlateloco/Tlaxcala/Calix - no idea, i'm guessing you are just farm there and just run some specialist. No real specialization or am i missing something?

It depends on how many good tiles the city has. The southern fish+horse+rice city has those 3 tiles but pretty much nothing else, thus this is a good city to run specialists in. Working cottages on a regular grassland tile without a financial leader is something you will more or less never see me do. Without representation you probably want to run scientists in some selected cities and run them mostly for the GPP. The 2 northern cities are different from the southern one in the fact that they have several river/commerce tiles other than the food resources thus these cities can focus on growing and whipping infrastructure. If I work scientists there then I miss out on other good tiles, and I probably won't get enough GPP to get a GP there for a long, long time. Most of my GPs will come from the capital, but I will squeeze in one from the southern city. When I tech constitution and get representation these cities can start working specialists too.

City up north - no idea (couldn't find a screenshot of the city up north

Same as above answer--growing and whipping infrastructure as it has many commerce tiles.

I have only mastered the CE on emperor, I can do it pretty well. Only recently have I started trying a SE so pardon my noobish questions I guess my biggest question is how do you do city specialization in a SE for cities like Tlateloco/Tlaxcala/Calix? In a CE, it was easy. If i have the grasslands/food to support cottages then it would be a commerce/beaker/money city. If i didn't I would turn it into a production city typically.

They weren't noobish questions at all, I'm glad you asked because I could've mentioned it in my report. I find the term "SE" misleading, because most of the time you use farms for whipping, not for specialists (at least without the Pyramids).

 

[royal62184]

Thanks, that helped clear up a lot of my questions. I think once I get home and look at your saved file it will make a lot more sense.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Well done so far going the peaceful route

1 small comment, Hamu (Budda) built the AP, one of your cities has budda religion, i would spread it to all cities ASAP and get those free 4 hammer in each. They help with the culture wars (will get more intense) as well.

you have poor , i actually built the HE in capital instead of NE since it is by far the best prod city, when the GL and Partenon were built so early, i question whether it is really needed to put the NE there.

No one has the GLH (almost game broken on Deity in this kind of maps), but Pacal has 11 cities, so he will still be the biggest threat soon when he become more developped.

What are your next priorities? Liberalism and Optics?

 

[Rusten]

I might not have much raw , but I have a lot of food, and that's all you need for a renaissance war/production. I can whip siege and mounted units while drafting riflemen or muskets. Getting the NE was a no-brainer for me as I wasn't going to be running Pacifism any time soon.

Good point about the AP, I'll try to spare some hammers for Buddhist missionaries. While it would normally be very costly I am spiritual here, so those temples cost much less.

My next priority is to grab Nationalism with Liberalism, construct the Taj Mahal and to figure out who to declare upon and whether to wait for Steel and/or Rifling or not. Don't think I'll pursue Optics, I'd rather trade for it. I doubt the other civs are as advanced as the Hindu club at this time, so I have no interest in meeting them. In fact I have an interest in avoiding them as that means I can keep trading with the Hindus without getting WFYABTA with the civs unknown to me at this time.