[RD] The DUP, Tories, and Problems with Proportional Representation

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Does the Tories’ alliance with the DUP demonstrate a potential problem with proportional representation where a government ostensibly in the mainstream is pushed to an extreme by forming a coalition with a fringe party? Could situations like that be avoided or is it an essential problem with proportional representation?

For those of you who do not know, the DUP is an Ulster unionist party and a bunch of jerks. In the wake of this year’s election, the Conservatives found themselves a minority party and could only form a government by forming a coalition with the DUP. Numerous observers criticized May for her choice of bedfellows, teaming as she did with the political arm of a former terrorist organization.
 
I bet there would be hell to pay if Labour teamed up with Northern Irish Sinn Fein.
 
I don't really see it as a problem, as they weren't forced to form that coalition, they just chose it over the alternative options as it's the sure way to keep them in power in the short term.

If they're now influenced by that party, or give in to them too much, their reputation will plummet, and in the next elections they'll pay the price.
 
I don't really see it as a problem, as they weren't forced to form that coalition, they just chose it over the alternative options as it's the sure way to keep them in power in the short term.

It's problematic because nobody voted for an alliance with the DUP. Coalitions always override the will of the voter to some extend and give undue influence to small parties. It's the lesser evil compared to the American winer takes all system, but it's still undemocratic.

If they're now influenced by that party, or give in to them too much, their reputation will plummet, and in the next elections they'll pay the price.

The next election is little comfort if you have to live under an unwanted government now.
 
It's problematic because nobody voted for an alliance with the DUP. Coalitions always override the will of the voter to some extend and give undue influence to small parties. It's the lesser evil compared to the American winer takes all system, but it's still undemocratic.

I'm not sure it is. The US gives somewhat bad (bad here defined as undemocratic) outcomes a lot of the time, but when PR systems give bad outcomes the outcomes they give are really, royally terrible (e.g. inability to form a majority government in the Weimar parliament leading to a Hitler dictatorship).
 
It's problematic because nobody voted for an alliance with the DUP. Coalitions always override the will of the voter to some extend and give undue influence to small parties. It's the lesser evil compared to the American winer takes all system, but it's still undemocratic.
I don't really see it as a problem that is unique to this process. Even if you vote for a particular party, and that party gets the majority, then there are still going to be things in their program that you do not want them to implement, but you voted for because they have the best "overall package". I see those alliances as another part of the package that you have to factor in as a potential deal-breaker, after all, parties are usually asked about their willingness to form alliances should they be necessary to get them into or keep them in power. That risk is more vague, true, but then again, the party is probably going to fight as good as they can to stand for their set of things they want implemented over what the smaller partner wants. Doesn't always work out that way of course, but then again, next time you vote them off the government if they did a particularly bad job.
 
I'm not sure it is. The US gives somewhat bad (bad here defined as undemocratic) outcomes a lot of the time, but when PR systems give bad outcomes the outcomes they give are really, royally terrible (e.g. inability to form a majority government in the Weimar parliament leading to a Hitler dictatorship).

There's many way to organize such a system. In Germany we've fixed some of it with the 5% threshold so that parliament isn't cluttered with tiny parties.
The problem with the US system is that your parties are basically coalitions. While Germany has politically irrelevant Neonazi and fundamentalist parties that don't make the threshold, Neonazis and fundamentalist are a part of the American big tent mainstream conservative party. Our conservatives are still corrupt and reactionary, but nowhere near as insane as the GOP.
 
In Germany we've fixed some of it with the 5% threshold so that parliament isn't cluttered with tiny parties.

That is a good rule.

The problem with the US system is that your parties are basically coalitions. While Germany has politically irrelevant Neonazi and fundamentalist parties that don't make the threshold, Neonazis and fundamentalist are a part of the American big tent mainstream conservative party. Our conservatives are still corrupt and reactionary, but nowhere near as insane as the GOP.

I think it's a mistake to attempt to pin the political relevance of nazis and fundamentalists on the US party system. We have political-economic malaise in this country (nod to Jimmy Carter) that goes a lot deeper than the specific form of the electoral system.
 
I think it's a mistake to attempt to pin the political relevance of nazis and fundamentalists on the US party system. We have political-economic malaise in this country (nod to Jimmy Carter) that goes a lot deeper than the specific form of the electoral system.

I'm not sure about that. It is very difficult to start a functional (relevant) political party under an FPTP system. Taking over an existing party, twisting the agenda and inheriting its voter base is much easier. The Republican party has clearly been hijacked.
 
I'm not sure about that. It is very difficult to start a functional (relevant) political party under an FPTP system. Taking over an existing party, twisting the agenda and inheriting its voter base is much easier. The Republican party has clearly been hijacked.

So, there's a lot to unpack here but I think there are a number of false assumptions built into this point. First, I don't think that what you've described is actually what has happened with the Republican Party. Its course wasn't really changed by Trump so much as its trajectory being accelerated. I actually think they started down this road with Nixon's presidency, which was when they became, in essence, a white nationalist party. So I can't agree with your formulation because rather than some force taking over the Republican Party and "inheriting the base" is simply not accurate: it was the base itself that "hijacked the party," Donald Trump was just the conduit through which they acted. So again Trump didn't represent a change of course so much as an acceleration.

And of course my initial point stands - even if we accept your description as basically correct, you're still not accounting for the power of these forces in the first place, only described how the features of the US electoral system influence the formula they use to build electoral/political power.

Of course, it's possible that I'm misinterpreting you, missing something, or both.
 
I don't really see it as a problem that is unique to this process. Even if you vote for a particular party, and that party gets the majority, then there are still going to be things in their program that you do not want them to implement, but you voted for because they have the best "overall package". I see those alliances as another part of the package that you have to factor in as a potential deal-breaker, after all, parties are usually asked about their willingness to form alliances should they be necessary to get them into or keep them in power. That risk is more vague, true, but then again, the party is probably going to fight as good as they can to stand for their set of things they want implemented over what the smaller partner wants. Doesn't always work out that way of course, but then again, next time you vote them off the government if they did a particularly bad job.

OK, but it still means that the FDP was historically far more powerful than it had any right to be, and we're almost certainly going to get another "Grand Coalition" no matter how we vote. Could be worse, of course. Could also be better.
I'd suggest two rounds of voting. The first one the way we're already doing it, and then a referendum for the proposed coalition. If the referendum fails, we have another election.

I think it's a mistake to attempt to pin the political relevance of nazis and fundamentalists on the US party system. We have political-economic malaise in this country (nod to Jimmy Carter) that goes a lot deeper than the specific form of the electoral system.

Of course there's the colonial legacy (slave economy and all), founding myths, Manifest Destiny and all that, but I think the voting system is still a problem and exacerbates the cultural and historical pathologies whereas a better system could compensate for them to some extent.
Uprooting the entire system would be politically infeasible, and as I said, proportional representation has its own issues, but something needs to be done. Ranked choice voting would be a pretty good starting point.
 
Of course there's the colonial legacy (slave economy and all), founding myths, Manifest Destiny and all that, but I think the voting system is still a problem and exacerbates the cultural and historical pathologies whereas a better system could compensate for them to some extent.

I certainly agree with you on this. I haven't been criticizing the electoral college and the Senate as illegitimate systems of minority rule because I think they're perfect and don't need to be changed!
 
I think it is rather strange to use the UK as an example of problems with proportional representation since that country does not use proportional representation. Looking at current political events, I would say proportional representation systems on the continent are doing pretty well compared to the US/UK, thank you very much.

For the specific case of the UK today, if you want my honest opinion, the main issue is that the people voted for kind of stuff. They did so in the (proportional) referendum and in the (FPTP) Commons election, so the electoral system doesn't seem determinative.

I'm also not sure how much weight one should give to the example of the Weimar republic. The reason it is called Weimar republic is that from the moment it was founded, the actual capital was unsafe for politicians due to the large influence of roving, armed groups of communists and proto-fascists. That's not a great basis for a functioning democracy, so it's a bit harsh to blame the electoral system.
 
I think it's a mistake to attempt to pin the political relevance of nazis and fundamentalists on the US party system. We have political-economic malaise in this country (nod to Jimmy Carter) that goes a lot deeper than the specific form of the electoral system.

This is certainly true, but I think that the electoral system has contributed to this malaise. You have two parties, which both can build their entire political success on making the opposite party look as bad as possible. There is little incentive to solve basic problems by cooperation or compromise, because there is nothing to gain if both parties are involved. In a multi-party system the strategies employed by the parties in the USA would not work, because making another party look bad is only going to help so much when there are other parties around to pick up the voters. Additionally, a proportional representation system cannot be gerrymandered, so representative entrenchment cannot reach the absurd levels it has in the USA.

I'm also not sure how much weight one should give to the example of the Weimar republic. The reason it is called Weimar republic is that from the moment it was founded, the actual capital was unsafe for politicians due to the large influence of roving, armed groups of communists and proto-fascists. That's not a great basis for a functioning democracy, so it's a bit harsh to blame the electoral system.

This, plus a way too powerful office of president, major parties that actively searched for ways to discredit democracy, a bad economic crisis and the unbearable legacy of the Versailles treaty were as much of a factor as the electoral system. The Wiemar Republic is as much of a warning against proportional representation, as it is against powerful presidents. Yet, there are countries that had and have presidents as powerful and did not give power to someone like Hitler, yet.
 
Does the Tories’ alliance with the DUP demonstrate a potential problem with proportional representation where a government ostensibly in the mainstream is pushed to an extreme by forming a coalition with a fringe party? Could situations like that be avoided or is it an essential problem with proportional representation?
Both the Tories and the DUP have seats far beyond their share of the vote. Proportional representation would solve this problem in a stroke. It might produce some new Frankenstein of a government- but, it might not. It hasn't in Scotland.

It seems incredibly bizarre to look at the failure of a first-past-the-post system and declare, you see, proportional representation would never work!

I'm not sure it is. The US gives somewhat bad (bad here defined as undemocratic) outcomes a lot of the time, but when PR systems give bad outcomes the outcomes they give are really, royally terrible (e.g. inability to form a majority government in the Weimar parliament leading to a Hitler dictatorship).
The failure of the Weimar Republic wasn't really an issue of PR, so much as all of the major parties flatly refusing to work with each other. A FPP system would have only untangled that mess in the unlikely event that it allowed one of those parties to stumble into a majority, and even then you're gambling that it would be a party you like.
 
It seems incredibly bizarre to look at the failure of a first-past-the-post system and declare, you see, proportional representation would never work!
No one made that declaration!

The potential problem in question came to me in the shower this morning, and I was curious if anyone knew of a solution. I don’t think anyone is suggesting British democracy is broke. I’m just curious if people a.) think of this behavior as a flaw and b.) can think of a solution.
 
Does the Tories’ alliance with the DUP demonstrate a potential problem with proportional representation where a government ostensibly in the mainstream is pushed to an extreme by forming a coalition with a fringe party? Could situations like that be avoided or is it an essential problem with proportional representation?

For those of you who do not know, the DUP is an Ulster unionist party and a bunch of jerks. In the wake of this year’s election, the Conservatives found themselves a minority party and could only form a government by forming a coalition with the DUP. Numerous observers criticized May for her choice of bedfellows, teaming as she did with the political arm of a former terrorist organization.

Your argument here is faulty in that you employ implicit premises that are oblivious to the political culture in (many if not most) continental European PR democracies.

In most of those (that i have the least knowledge about) including my own there is a culture of responsibility, that the UK apparently lacks (obviously because usually it's not needed in the first place).

Radical small parties are marginalised.
Moderate parties or sharp wing parties that are at least percieved to be supporters of the system are expected to be ready for whatever is deemed the "responsible" coalition government.
Major parties are expected to enforce this. They are expected to not do wacky experiments with radical fringe parties potentially hostile to constitutional order, decency, whathaveyou.
If need be major parties are expected to govern together.
The electorate is supposed to (and often does) reward and punish parties according to whether they uphold or transgress against this code of responsibility.
(The whole thing is backed up by tangible game theory, it's not just some lofty notion).
Let me demonstrate with a comparison of the current governments of the UK and the FRG:
This is the current Federal Diet:
Spoiler :

sitzverteilung_18_xl.png


Coming at this from an Anglospherian perspective you may wonder why the heck Merkel gets to govern the country (seeing additionally the left wing parties have the upper hand in the Federal Council - our upper house).
The cause is that for the longest time this nice pink party over there was deemed too radical to act responsibly in government. There's movement on this, in the near future a left wing government as seems opportune here might come to pass (if the seat allocations enabled it, which they will likely no longer do after the election next month).
People on the left often joke about how 320 is totally less than 311 while rolling their eyes (e.g. i may have done so on this board actually) - vaguely analogues to ranting Sanders supporters.
The result is that, abiding by the code of responsibility, both major parties govern together, as they did in the 16th Diet (i.e. 05-09).


There is some room for license in this code and this is where we get to the UK:
From a German perspective the LibDem refusal to enter a coalition would be deemed highly unorthodox and be subjected to intense scrutiny. In this particular case though there would be some empathy for their recent coalition experience and the public would, maybe, begrudgingly give them a pass.
The - very firm - expectation then would be that Conservatives and Labour would form a coalition government heavily emphasising consensus, reconciliation and national unification, particularly so due to the challenges of Brexit the wounds and resentments of the referendum etc.
What happened instead in the UK would have been deemed hyper-partisan, morally corrupt, the hight of recklessness and plain outragegous.
The country would be in a state of anger and political uproar.
(It would also be close to ungovernable due to the Federal Council considerations, but that's neither here not there).

Also:
As TF has pointed out the current coalition would have been prevented by PR in the first place, by not awarding Conservatives and the DUP the necessary seats in the first place.

No one made that declaration!

The potential problem in question came to me in the shower this morning, and I was curious if anyone knew of a solution. I don’t think anyone is suggesting British democracy is broke. I’m just curious if people a.) think of this behavior as a flaw and b.) can think of a solution.
I wouldn't say "broke". But...

My perception of political culture in the UK (and arguably the US and Canada as well) is hardly unique around here.
Also, the Basic Law outlines four criteria for what we deem a "democratic election".
The UK violates one of them, while the US grossly violates (at least) two of them with intent and prejudice.
So there's that.
Uprooting the entire system would be politically infeasible, and as I said, proportional representation has its own issues, but something needs to be done. Ranked choice voting would be a pretty good starting point.

As i have repeatedly stated i am fiercely critical of these harebrained AV/instant run-off schemes.
They are frought with moral hazard and only properly address parts of FPTP's problems.

There are less radical changes that could be made in the US, that would lead to some improvement while being wildly more feasable than switching to AV (or whatever).
There's the Interstate Compact for one. Or states could split their votes the way Nebraska and Maine do.
As for the House (and implicitly the presidency when combined with the above) multi-member districts (vaguely resembling the Australian Senate* to give a real life example) would be a significant improvement.

*(By which i mean, again, multi-member districts, not the silly AV stuff, obviously, having already stated my distatse for the latter)
 
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I often heard the argument from UK tv program people that somehow FPTP is wise, because it prevented having 80 Ukip mps. Well, if they think it is wise to have over 10 million people voting for something like Ukip, and then have your system granting the 10% just one seat in parliament, you really don't see past wishful thinking.
Meanwhile, both major parties have loads of utterly pathetic politicians, and one of them even flies the banner of being pathetic and now also dupeophilic. :)
 
The problem with first past the post is that it can result in just two parties alternating in
government, and if they both get captured by the same memes, there is no easy remedy.

In the US both parties (D and R) were captured by financial capitalism and the military industrial complex.

In the UK both parties (C and Lab) were captured by financial capitalism and belief in the EU project.

That situation is only marginally better than single parties e.g. the soviet union whereby that empire
was captured by authoritarian conformist central planning ideology and the military industial complex.
 
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