The Emperor Masters' Challenge 2 (on Warlords)

[Eqqman]

Choosing a state religion; if they're about equal, Buddhism gives diplomatic benefits, although increased war weariness (attacking brothers of faith).

I believe this is true for any city that shares your enemy's state religion, regardless if that is also your own empire's state religion or not.

 

[Andraeianus I]

HC hates us. So war it the only option. Rather soon than late.

It seems that stealing the worker early in the game was rather foolish. What did we win? An enemy!

Otherwise we would have had the option now to cultivate a friendship and do some trading.

 

[aelf]

Nobody noticed it so far, but I neglected to mention that we researched IW before Monotheism so that we could start improving the jungle cities (especially the gems). I've added this to the update.

It seems that stealing the worker early in the game was rather foolish. What did we win? An enemy!

Otherwise we would have had the option now to cultivate a friendship and do some trading.

Wow. The only person I've seen so far who is against worker stealing. Well, it did get us another worker very early in the game, which I think was a great help to us. And imagine what HC would be like if we hadn't ******ed his growth then?

Yes, I am getting conflicting advice, and worse than ever

I'm leaning towards building up. What can a war now possibly gain us? I don't think pillaging HC would do much good, and that is probably at the cost of half of the units we have at least. If we build up, we can strengthen our economy, overwhelm HC later and actually have a go at achieving the objectives of our game. As it is I fear I may have taken too many cities and seriously ******ed our research such that we are in danger of not achieving what we set out to do.

That said, the next GP, I think, should be used to get a shrine. Getting Theology with it opens up DR to lightbulbed next, but what good is that if our research is so slow? I believe we still need to research part of DR ourselves. And there are other important techs that we must research. Paper, for one, is needed for Sankore, and we will take ages to research it at this rate. The next GP can be used on Theology or on DR itself, depending on when we get it. For now Memphis is the priest city, but I'm moving back to Thebes after this one to get the next GP sooner.

I'm thinking of cottaging up Madrid and putting the HE in Thebes. In that case, I'll put the GG in Thebes as a GMI. One thing we need to consider is whether we want Thebes to be the Ironworks city, since the National Epic would presumably go there. Building the HE there pretty much means Thebes won't be the site for Ironworks.

Need your thoughts and comments. The differences in opinion show just how complex the next phase of the game is

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

One thing we need to consider is whether we want Thebes to be the Ironworks city, since the National Epic would presumably go there.

This is a new one for me. The usual pairings I'm familiar with for National Epic are Globe Theater for happiness or Oxford University mostly as an indirect consequence of pairing National Epic with The Great Library. What's the reason for putting National Epic with Ironworks? Does that give you a surge of late game Great Engineers from all the engineer specialists you can run?

 

[Hey Joni]

My advice is to be prepared with as much food and population possible in the city that will have the shrine. Also, build an obelisk in it, so when you have the shrine, you will get to have a max of 5 priests for GP, plus the shrine's GP point. That will get you the next prophet as quickly as possible.

 

[aelf]

This is a new one for me. The usual pairings I'm familiar with for National Epic are Globe Theater for happiness or Oxford University mostly as an indirect consequence of pairing National Epic with The Great Library. What's the reason for putting National Epic with Ironworks? Does that give you a surge of late game Great Engineers from all the engineer specialists you can run?

NE is good because of all the wonders Thebes will have owing to its high productivity, and its high productivity makes the Ironworks good there for late game wonder and spaceship production.

Oh, another issue we need to think about that I forgot to mention: Which shrine should we build? Since Madrid will be cottaged up and become a commerce city, should we build the Buddhist shrine and put the Wall Street there later?

 

[aelf]

My advice is to be prepared with as much food and population possible in the city that will have the shrine. Also, build an obelisk in it, so when you have the shrine, you will get to have a max of 5 priests for GP, plus the shrine's GP point. That will get you the next prophet as quickly as possible.

That is an argument in favour of building the Confucian shrine instead.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Also, build an obelisk in it, so when you have the shrine, you will get to have a max of 5 priests for GP, plus the shrine's GP point.

Does the obelisk still allow its 2 priests after it becomes obsolete when you discover Calendar? Anyone know?

 

[LingLinsRevenge]

That is an argument in favour of building the Confucian shrine instead.

Aelf,
Please explain this further.... Why Confucian versus Buddhist... what is the comparison between the two founding cities?

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Aelf,
Please explain this further.... Why Confucian versus Buddhist... what is the comparison between the two founding cities?

I think his point is that Memphis has more food surplus available, which would make running those 5 priest specialists easier. In one of the screenshots in post #189 you can see that Memphis has corn, pork, and possibly some sugar (I can never identify sugar without the little Ctrl-R icons).

 

[aelf]

Sorry for not being clear.

I think his point is that Memphis has more food surplus available, which would make running those 5 priest specialists easier. In one of the screenshots in post #189 you can see that Memphis has corn, pork, and possibly some sugar (I can never identify sugar without the little Ctrl-R icons).

Yes, that's right. I think it was mentioned by somebody earlier that Memphis makes a good GP farm. This is especially true considering my proposal of making Madrid the commerce city. Alternatively, we can cottage up Memphis instead, but I think that's not really putting the city to its best use.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

FYI, I just did some World Builder tests to answer some questions that have come up.

First, experience gained with the Leadership promotion does not add to the experience accumulated toward a Great General. My unit fought one battle for which it received 3 XP. The F5 screen showed only 2/45 toward the Great General.

Second, when you research Calendar and obelisks become obsolete, you can no longer assign the 2 priest specialists they allow. Keep that in mind when planning your research path.

 

[aelf]

Thanks for the info, Dr Elmer.

Hmm... All of sudden there are no replies. Come on, guys. I need some input. We have big decisions to make that have not been sufficiently discussed. The main points:

- Should it be war to weaken Huayna next, or peace to build up economy? And, if we wait, when should we attack?

- How should we use the next GP? On a shrine or to pop Theology? If we choose to pop Theology, how should we pull our economy out of the doldrums quickly? If we choose to build a shrine, which should we build (placing, as well as immediate vs long-term profits, should be considered)? And, still supposing we build the shrine, should the following GP pop Theology or research that normally and pop DR (this will determine our research priorities)?

- Following this train of thought, what should we research next? Monarchy seems to be a good option. But we do need Alphabet and Literature soon (to possibly extort techs and build the epics), so when should those be researched? How about the military techs, such as Construction and Machinery? And should we try to build forges soon (we are Industrial)? With no tech trading, we need to consider research priorities carefully to keep up with the other continent and achieve the objective of our game, as well as to be able to defeat HC eventually without mutual destruction.

- I suppose we're more inclined towards putting the GG in the military city as a GMI, since we already have a level 5 unit. But which city should be the military city? Thebes, Madrid or Huamanga?

As you can see, there are many important questions to answer, and I would feel much more at ease continuing if we could discuss them first. I won't be around for the next two days, so you guys can share/discuss your views in the meantime. I will read them when I can and consider which plan to adopt.

Thanks for your continuing support!

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

- Should it be war to weaken Huayna next, or peace to build up economy? And, if we wait, when should we attack?

IMHO, war is always a good idea if you can afford it, always a bad idea if you can't. Without having looked at the save, my guess is that if you have to ask, you can't afford it. Build the economy.

- How should we use the next GP? On a shrine or to pop Theology? If we choose to pop Theology, how should we pull our economy out of the doldrums quickly? If we choose to build a shrine, which should we build (placing, as well as immediate vs long-term profits, should be considered)? And, still supposing we build the shrine, should the following GP pop Theology or research that normally and pop DR (this will determine our research priorities)?

You'll need to look at how far you've spread the religion at that point to see whether it's worth it now, but I usually feel like prophets should prioritize shrine building if that's available as an option. The way I see it, the technology can be researched "manually," but you can't build the shrine any other way.

Since your primary reason for building the shrine is money, I'd say build the shrine for whichever religion has spread the widest. If there's a different shrine that would be more profitable 100 turns down the road, well, you've got 100 turns to build that one. You need the cash now, not later. Within +/- a few cities you can factor in other issues like which one is a state religion (likely to be spread more) and/or which one is in a city that needs the culture and/or other factors, but if there's a real difference in income between the options, go for the money.

- Following this train of thought, what should we research next? Monarchy seems to be a good option. But we do need Alphabet and Literature soon (to possibly extort techs and build the epics), so when should those be researched? How about the military techs, such as Construction and Machinery? And should we try to build forges soon (we are Industrial)? With no tech trading, we need to consider research priorities carefully to keep up with the other continent and achieve the objective of our game, as well as to be able to defeat HC eventually without mutual destruction.

Unless you're planning to go to war real soon now, Alphabet isn't a high priority. Your neighbors hate you (with good reason! ), so they aren't going to trade anything. The only way you're getting technology from them is extortion.

Construction would be useful soon. More so, I think, than Machinery. In my experience, the AI always seems to get Fuedalism really fast, and then they immediately use their cheap upgrades to get themselves a ton of longbows. Macemen are nice, but if they're up against longbows you better have some catapults too. If they're only up against plain archers, then you didn't really need macemen anyway.

- I suppose we're more inclined towards putting the GG in the military city as a GMI, since we already have a level 5 unit. But which city should be the military city? Thebes, Madrid or Huamanga?

I'm always happiest if my Heroic Epic city is coastal so I can build naval units. That doesn't seem to be an option in this game, at least not right now. Do you even have any coastal cities? Any at all?

It's also nice to have the Heroic Epic in your capital to get the extra production bonus from (oh, crap, now I have to look it up so I can spell it right ...) Bureaucracy. Of course, you have to decide whether you'd rather have the commerce bonus to make the capital into a science city.

At first glance, Thebes isn't looking like a great production city to me. Yes, it has the 3 hills, marble, and horses, but there are also a lot of flatlands that you can't turn into watermills. I haven't actually counted tiles though, so maybe I'm missing some things. You did say you were thinking of it for Ironworks, so it must be decent. My impression is that it will be good for a while (ex. now) but will be kind of mediocre in the long term.

Based on screenshots, Huamanga looks like the better production city to me. It's also somewhat more centrally located, which isn't something I'd use to decide the location, but it's always a nice bonus (so you don't have your new recruits trekking 30 turns across the continent before they get where they're going).

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well

1- H.C. I'd say Look at a relatively Long term Peace, switching to Buddhism, and waiting until sometime around Paper for the next war

2-Definitely Shrine, and I'd make it the Buddhist one because we can expand Buddhism easily (into our own cities) Plus I believe there Are more Buddhist cities... also try and run Priests there
(Edited on firther thought and calculation) Next prophet for Theology
Consider running ~2 Priest centers
Memphis can run 4 Priests with Ob+two Temples at pop 6=12 GPP/turn
Madrid can run 3 Priests with the Shrine at pop 5=10 GPP/turn
So after the Next Prophet build the Buddhist Shrine thats
~37 Turns to the next (Memphis)=Theology
~22 Turns to the next (Madrid)=DR
~40 Turns to the next (Memphis)=Shrine
The second Shrine shouldn't be needed to stabilize the Economy, Bureaucracy Should do that. (2 lakes, marble, and a few Cottages, should allow Thebes to begin carrying its weight)


4-Research=Alphabet [trade], Monarchy [Happy], Literature [Epic], Paper [Sankore], (Math+Construction? for War with Inca) DR
Trade for everything else... Currency, Metal Casting


5- I'd say Huamanga, Thebes is the best, since you have the Bureaucracy Bonus already...BUT that Bureaucracy Bonus means Thebes should be working on Other things (Commerce)



By beefing up with an Axe Chariot Mix, expanding, and building basically Religion+Military only, (technically, Religion, Military, Courts+Granaries) you should be able to prepare for that next War. And the Peaceful trading should allow you to get some of the catching up you need to do.

 

[Hey Joni]

If you waste both next prophets on the shrines, it is possible that someone beats you to DR (Christianity has already been founded, right?), making the Spiral Minaret race a tough fight. IMO, one of them must definately be spent on tech, you choose which one...

Also, see if you have stone anywhere on the continent and prebuild a settler for it if you can't get it otherwise. (sorry, I don't have the game at the office and can't see it myself; you might be already connected)

 

[voek]

- Should it be war to weaken Huayna next, or peace to build up economy? And, if we wait, when should we attack?

Given his growing strenght, cultural defenses and Iron possesion, it's going to be a though nut to crack. Only good thing, he isn't aggressive anymore. So I think the only war you could fight is a pillage war. However, I would only do this if you have some axes protecting your war chariots, otherwise you will gain heavy losses, believe me. You have Iron (not hooked up yet) so you can build some soon. There also need some improvements to pillage (not only roads). You need money. I often avoid getting bankrupt just pillaging lands which I can't take anyway. Conquer him with maces/cats when the time is right. You don't need the extra land right now (maintenance). Let Izzy fill in some empty spots and nicely take them over in a while.

- How should we use the next GP? On a shrine or to pop Theology? If we choose to pop Theology, how should we pull our economy out of the doldrums quickly? If we choose to build a shrine, which should we build (placing, as well as immediate vs long-term profits, should be considered)? And, still supposing we build the shrine, should the following GP pop Theology or research that normally and pop DR (this will determine our research priorities)?

Shrine. Don't need Theocrazy that bad (certainly with that great general (hint). You do need the money. Christianity already has been found so that advantage is lost. It's too early to beeline for the Spiral anyway.

- Following this train of thought, what should we research next? Monarchy seems to be a good option. But we do need Alphabet and Literature soon (to possibly extort techs and build the epics), so when should those be researched? How about the military techs, such as Construction and Machinery? And should we try to build forges soon (we are Industrial)? With no tech trading, we need to consider research priorities carefully to keep up with the other continent and achieve the objective of our game, as well as to be able to defeat HC eventually without mutual destruction.

I would go after Alphabet (and Literature) so you will extort a few techs from the Inca's. The GL still might not be lost. Did you have marble somewhere hooked up? But Alphabet you still need anyway and Literature for the national wonders. But when writing this I am wondering how far (long) away are machinery and construction (which you need for your war)? Maybe it would be better to get those first, build up a army, research alphabet while declaring war.

 

[aelf]

Thanks for the input so far! There are areas where your views are outrightly conflicting, but that's not surprising Well, you have two days to come to a consensus or to continue disagreeing. Keep it coming. I shall weigh all your opinions and decide what to do in two days' time.

 

[PeteJ]

Another advantage of Alphabet is that you could set some of your production cities to build "research" and that will help you get the techs you need while waiting for your cottages to mature. Building research turns each hammer into a beaker, so if you have a good city that can produce 15 hammers, that is 15 beakers without too much hassle(besides the fact that you can't build anything else in that city).

 

[50_dollar_bag]

The Shrine you should build should be the one for the state religion you want to run with since later on you'll be building the Spiral Minaret and Uni of Sankore you'll want to focus on spreading that religion the most.