The Emperor Masters' Challenge 3 (on Warlords)

[Pogel]

I would grab the marble/pigs first and then chop out another settler for a copper city. I think you'll see barbs from your north, and the odd one from the south but not to many from the other points of the compass so I think it's a calculated risk.

 

[aelf]

If Saladin manages to found a religion and spread it to you, you're clearly better off targeting Brennus. Don't forget he's Charismatic though. He'll likely have quite promoted units too, though not at Saladin's archers' level.

Which is why he's the bigger threat in the long run as the extra promotions cumulate. And there's that tiny little problem of the happiness bonus. Not good. Protective is annoying, but with enough siege, it's no more than a more stubborn sitting duck.

Anyway, in this case Marble city goes first, but be sure to get copper before the barbs start throwing axes at you.

They can't chop through a great wall made of stone

I sense that opinions are turning towards the marble city.

 

[carl corey]

Aaaaaaaaargh. Of course. Great wall. Really great. Forgot about it. I'm getting my versions mixed up here. Marble city it is then, and don't look back!

 

[Winston Hughes]

I think there's a strategic question here, which has been hinted at in some of the above posts: do we (i) go for the more immediately useful and productive inland cities, thus leaving the creation of the coastal cities (which are vital to the trading game) until later; or (ii) settle less potent coastal cities now, and so get them growing nicely in preparation for our later trade efforts, at the risk of leaving ourselves underpowered in the crucial early stages of the game?

The marble/pigs city seems to be a necessary choice at this stage, but the copper city could go either way. The site NE of the copper would probably be the right choice if we were not worried about future trading advantages, but if we build only inland cities at this stage then we'll be reducing the scope for making the most of our trade-based wonders later on.

Given the resource locations elsewhere, along with the lack of fish etc., I suspect that this will be a question we have to ask repeatedly in the early game.

As a trade nut, I usually go for the coastal cities even if they're worse than the inland options in terms of production (etc.). But, on the other hand, I don't play on emperor difficulty...

ps. Actually, from this perspective, our capital might turn out to be quite well placed; it has access to the sea, but plenty of land as well.

 

[MartinhoMukanga]

what if u settle 1E of site A? That way you would grab the incense as well

 

[NaZdReG]

Aelf,

if you are going to settle the inland city first and want it to be protected by the great wall they MUST share a common cultural border. the only way to do that would be to make sure the capitol has its 2nd pop to the areas beyond the "fat cross" you might want to build a monument just for the cultural oomph to make sure that you can do that.

**well thinking again do the math against the palace's cultural output to see how long it will take. in addition make sure the other city's borders pop through a monument or wonder BEFORE you get the wall up!!!**

NaZ

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

if you are going to settle the inland city first and want it to be protected by the great wall they MUST share a common cultural border.

The Great Wall protects all of your cities. The cultural border's only impact is on the graphics.

 

[Zophos]

The Great Wall protects all of your cities. The cultural border's only impact is on the graphics.

Yep. Cultural borders for all your cities (on the same continent) are protected, including those that you found AFTER the Wall is built, and including later border pops. Only the graphic remains constant.

One of the interesting effects of this behavior is that it is much safer to send out settlers to race ahead of their warrior escorts, or even completely unescorted settlers (not safe, safer). You can, perfectly safely, walk up next to a barb and plant a city. As soon as he plants a city, any wandering barbs in adjacent tiles are instantly expelled from the brand-new cultural borders.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

In terms of resources and city sites IMO this is an average or less Emperor start. A second problem is that the best 2, 3, and 4 city sites are all inland. I think it is time to rethink the trade strategy. At Emperor it is risky to follow a pre-game strategy if the land and AI neighbors suggest a different strategy would be better. On this map I'm not sure where your good coastal cities will come from unless you take them from the AI's.

There is lots of wood around for wonders or axes. I usually prefer axes, but a wonder strategy could work here.

I would settle the marble city first and then chop a settler for the bronze. Settle NE of the bronze to bag all the resources. And then let the sky rain axes upon the AI of your choice.

 

[Winston Hughes]

In terms of resources and city sites IMO this is an average or less Emperor start. A second problem is that the best 2, 3, and 4 city sites are all inland. I think it is time to rethink the trade strategy. At Emperor it is risky to follow a pre-game strategy if the land and AI neighbors suggest a different strategy would be better. On this map I'm not sure where your good coastal cities will come from unless you take them from the AI's.

In my rather limited experience, the best city positions (especially in terms of resources and production) are almost always inland. To play the trading game doesn't mean ignoring those sites, but it does mean that you need time to get the low-production (and often slow-growing) coastal cities up to scratch (ie. with all the necessary buildings and with a large population). With a lighthouse and lots of sea squares you can get the large population, but without food resources this can take a very long time (as is also the case with inland cities, but without the extra profits you get from trade in large coastal cities). Hence, building them early is a definite advantage.

I seriously doubt that the trade profits will outstrip what you get from heavily cottaged inland cities. But, since you can have a few of these as well, and since the coastal cities only need a large population (much of it supported by the commerce-generating and otherwise unused sea squares) and a few buildings (and cities to trade with, obviously), in the long term the trade approach should add extra profits on top of those gained by more usual means.

As for changing the strategy, I'm dead against it for several reasons. Firstly, just because I really want to see how the strategy works out. Secondly, because I think that by trying it we can learn some things we don't already know. Thirdly, because this is the Emperor Masters Challenge, so it ought to be challenging . Fourthly, because changing your strategy to fit the circumstances is something that I'm sure we all usually do anyway, and so sticking to a predetermined grand strategy sets games like this apart from more 'efficient' games and, imho, makes them much more interesting to read. After all, we're not talking about bending everything to the trade strategy, but rather keeping it in mind (and pursuing its key components) whilst playing
the game in an otherwise normal manner.

 

[NaZdReG]

no kidding about the great wall huh. I honestly didnt know that. thanks a bunch it will be of benefit to all of my future games. going for the great wall early would definately be a good move from now on.

NaZ

 

[aelf]

Good points from Winston Hughes. We can't abandon our trade strategy just like that. And the less-than-exciting map is again to be expected in an Ice Age one.

I'm thinking about settling Site A first and then settling a coastal copper city. The problem with moving Site A 1E to include incense is the increase in the number of desert tiles. The incense is good to have but will almost never be worked. Better to get it from a second border expansion beyond the fat cross.

 

[voek]

Definantly settle marble/pigs first. What's is the use of the Great Wall otherwise? Sure, the GE, but it protects against barbs meaning you don't need the strategic resources as early as usual, meaning you are able to settle a 'better' spot first.

Does ToA needs marble btw?

I think I would have stolen te worker. Yeah it is out of discussion anymore, but I still wanted to mention it. A free worker is huge imo and if you still want to wage war anyway as far as I can see...

Aelf, not that I am a builder of peaceful player, but considering your 'peaceful' trading strategy, have you considered a peacefull game (at least in the beginning)? Meaning cracking out settlers and capture a few good spots and go wonder building . You will have marble and might get stone (of you are fast). Get some nice wonders like ToA, Orcale, GL, Partheon, Colosus.

Kinda bold strategy, normally I would predict against it, but since it is a trading game and you do have marble and stone and to be sure we will have a MAJOR CHALLENGE, it might be worth considering. Taking a path I certainly haven't taken before.

If not, I would build 3 city's and take a shot against of those religious nuts (prob the regious founder, Brennus).

omg, still can't believe I am suggesting a peacefull path , but will post it anyway

 

[aelf]

Definantly settle marble/pigs first. What's is the use of the Great Wall otherwise? Sure, the GE, but it protects against barbs meaning you don't need the strategic resources as early as usual, meaning you are able to settle a 'better' spot first.

I think I would have stolen te worker. Yeah it is out of discussion anymore, but I still wanted to mention it. A free worker is huge imo and if you still want to wage war anyway as far as I can see...

Yeah, but stealing the worker might run counter to your earlier suggestion. If we steal the worker, we can't be sure that Saladin would agree to sign peace soon. And that would make it dangerous to settle the marble city first. Archers with free Drill promotion vs. our unpromoted warriors? Not good.

I guess not declaring war so early opens up more options for our game in the future. In the last game, it was alright because we didn't really need open borders for our strategy and we had War Chariots to help us beat our neighbours up. In this game, I felt that we have to be more careful.

Aelf, not that I am a builder of peaceful player, but considering your 'peaceful' trading strategy, have you considered a peacefull game (at least in the beginning)? Meaning cracking out settlers and capture a few good spots and go wonder building . You will have marble and might get stone (of you are fast). Get some nice wonders like ToA, Orcale, GL, Partheon, Colosus.

Kinda bold strategy, normally I would predict against it, but since it is a trading game and you do have marble and stone and to be sure we will have a MAJOR CHALLENGE, it might be worth considering. Taking a path I certainly haven't taken before.

If not, I would build 3 city's and take a shot against of those religious nuts (prob the regious founder, Brennus).

omg, still can't believe I am suggesting a peacefull path , but will post it anyway

All options are on the table. Certainly, we can get quite a few wonders: ToA, Great Lighthouse and Great Library, to begin with However, this does not preclude war, although we do have to conduct it in measured stages given our trade route strategy. I think the ideal situation would indeed be a united religious front with Saladin against Brennus. After that, we might want to turn on Saladin to bag the entire continent. Surest way to win in an Emperor game, if you ask me.

Anyway, I'm thinking of playing tonight if I have the time. The update would probably have to wait till tomorrow, though.

 

[voek]

Securing the continent is obvious are very viable strategy for Emperor. In fact, I would almost always do this. I would find it much more difficult not waging war on my own continent and see if I can still be in the race. It seems like a big challenge, since I doubt you will stand a chance this way.

To get back to the worker steal and settling towards Saladin. I normally have no problems at all with attacking AI's that early. They only sit in their capital and if you have a promoted warrior they might even not attack him. I think they will always offer peace in a while. At least such a ***** as Saladin. I would be afraid to settle that way, while at war. However, the site preference was made after your decision, so did not even consider being at war with Saladin.

 

[Winston Hughes]

All options are on the table. Certainly, we can get quite a few wonders: ToA, Great Lighthouse and Great Library, to begin with However, this does not preclude war, although we do have to conduct it in measured stages given our trade route strategy. I think the ideal situation would indeed be a united religious front with Saladin against Brennus. After that, we might want to turn on Saladin to bag the entire continent. Surest way to win in an Emperor game, if you ask me.

Looks like a sound strategy to me.

Don't forget the Collossus as a possible option. I know its unlikely we'll have the time, what with all the other early-game priorities. But that commerce bonus can generate some tasty profits from the coastal cities, and means you have to spend less time retarding your city growth by building workers (since cottage spamming can be slowed down without completely crippling your finances). Plus, its dead cheap to build if you've got copper. It does, of course, become obsolete with astronomy. But, once you get caravels you'll be opening up the lucrative long-distance trade-routes, which should more than compensate for the lost revenues (at least if you manage to get the necessary wonders/buildings etc.).

ps. I should warn you that all of my advice is based on my experiences on lower difficulty vanilla games with huge maps. So, I'm unable to fully account for the differences in health/happiness, corruption, distance, no. of cities (etc.), all of which will make the trading game less lucrative. In fact, that's precisely why I'm keen to see how this works; the trading strategy has brought me huge profits on my games (when it's used in conjunction with the normal cottage-based economy). But will it still prove useful on these less forgiving settings? We'll have to wait and see, but I reckon the addition of the ToA should compensate (and I can't wait to get my hands on one: double trade profits? I think I'll have to invest in a copy of Warlords ).

 

[patagonia]

I'll join the marble city first brigade.

One thought - is it worth chopping a monument there, then hooking up the marble and chopping the Oracle to make sure culture from Saladin isn't a problem and bag a free tech? Is there time to do all of those on Emperor before the AI is likely to build it? The Oracle would only be about 3 chops with marble online so it's quite an economical use of trees. As long as the great wall is built first, you wouldn't need to worry about the GPP from the Oracle giving you unwanted prophets either as with ToA, Washington will jump to 7GPP and your second city is unlikely to catch up before the GL is built.

In terms of longer term strategy, allying with Saladin against Brennus sounds like a good idea. I'd be disinclined to wipe Brennus out completely much before you think you'll have contact with the other continent though (maybe settle for siezing holy cities and leaving him with a useless (preferably inland) one in the desert somewhere), as tech trading opportunities will dry up if it's just you and Sally left, regardless of how friendly you are. If you make sure you get the bulk of the useful Celtic territory in any wars, you'll be sufficiently bigger than Saladin to take him down with stacks of trebs and your economy sufficiently developed to absorb his cities.

 

[Sisiutil]

The worker was oh-so-tempting, but I think you made the right decision for this game in passing him up, especially considering he was Saladin's. I find I can usually get along reasonably well with Sally even if we have different religions, and if you share a religion, he adores you. Speaking of which, given his proximity and high liklihood of founding a religion, letting it spread to you and making him a firm ally strikes me as sound. You can always turn on him much later in the game and take his holy city, especially if he's nice enough to build the shrine for you.

Now if that had been Monty's Worker, on the other hand...

 

[aelf]

Now if that had been Monty's Worker, on the other hand...

NUKE HIM!!! (can that be done?)

If our neighbour was Monty I would never dream of befriending him. But I think there was one game where he voted for me. He was on the other continent and buddies with Alex, whose empire blocked any prospect of Aztec expansion. And I was running Police State

I've played the second round and it ended, curiously enough, on 1560BC, just like in the previous attempt. But I'm certain our fate won't be sealed anytime soon this time Update will come tomorrow.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

It does sound like Elbow room will be at a premium. I'd say trim back any neighbour that threatens to hem you in...