The Emperor Masters' Challenge

[Andrei_V]

+50% attack, not defense. You protect them with Spears and Axes, that's it.

 

[malekithe]

...The City Raider Promotion is useless against them, you need Combat...

Not true. City Raider promotions are actually *more* effective against Keshiks because they never have defensive bonuses.

 

[futurehermit]

cats to strip cultural defenses then swords with city raider. couple spears in your stack for defense. i believe that if you attack with swords, the archers will be the best defender, so once you kill off the archers, you can attack with your spears (i would give them combat promotions probably good in def and off) and finish off the keshiks.

 

[stuge]

Agree with Futurehermit et al. The Keshiks are of no concern if you bring some spers along. Just remember to prioritise CoL if you're going to capture any far-flung cities. Courthouses are expensive, of course, but getting them up shouldn't be a problem, given how effectively you handle the whip.

Oh, and subscribing to this nice thread.

 

[Andrei_V]

If there are Archers + Keshiks, Keshiks are the best defense against everything but Spears. To the Spears, Archers will respond. Bring more cats, not Spears.

 

[malekithe]

If there are Archers + Keshiks, Keshiks are the best defense against everything but Spears. To the Spears, Archers will respond. Bring more cats, not Spears.

That'll be true in about half the cases. But, if the archers have sufficient bonuses, they will be chosen instead. For instance, let's say you're attacking with a city raider I sword and there is an archer with a total 100% defense bonus and an unpromoted keshik. The archer's adjusted strength would be (3 * 1.8) 5.4. The keshik would only be (6 / 1.2) 5. So, the archer would be chosen.

So, if you're fighting against archers with city defender promotions, cultural bonuses still intact, or on hills, more often than not, the archers will be chosen to defend over the keshiks.

 

[Andrei_V]

That just means you still need cats, whether against Keshiks or Archers on hills. And don't expect them unpromoted. They'll be most likely Combat I-II.

 

[futurehermit]

since you have construction anyways, and you're bringing cats to take down the defenses, might as well have a couple more to soften up the defenders. can't hurt. better to lose some catapults than to lose swords.

 

[malekithe]

better to lose some catapults than to lose swords.

Actually, at the beginning of the war, the catapults will be the most valuable thing on the battlefield and should be conserved while their numbers are increased. Remember, when you're going to war with axes and catapults, the catapults actually cost you more to replace than the axemen (and the same as swords). When you start to get units with large numbers of promotions, though, their replacement cost goes up and catapults become relatively less valuable. By then you should have produced a fair number of cats back home and sent them on their way to the front. This is when you start sending in the suicide cats. I don't think this first war against Khan will need many suicide cats. The next war, though, should have plenty.

In this game, I would cease all axeman production from here on out. Once you cut Khan's iron, your axemen will no longer be the best unit for anything you'd be facing. Swords or cats will be universally better for sieging cities, and swords or spears will protect your stacks from counter-attack.

 

[Andrei_V]

A cat is worth 40 hammers, same as a Sword, and only 5 hammers more than an Axe. A couple of suicidal cats would save you 3-4 Axes, maybe more, not to mention not all of them die due to 25% withdrawal chance.

Winner cats get promotions, including City Raider. A City Raider II cat against an Archer is no longer a "suicidal" mission, unless on a hill with CDII or something.

Suicide a couple of Collateral cats, then attack with CR cats. You'll lose a lot less hammers.

 

[voek]

I am playing a shadow game and i also have never played with mansu before (at least at emperor). Imho i think skirmishes s*ck. I dont like to research archery anyway and axes are always better. They just become nice defenders later on (yes later, since i dont research archery unless i have no choise). I went to war some earlier. A good old early axerush. I whipped/chopped/build me a army and was quit succesfull. Even though those anoying hill city's. Most of the city's he build this game he did also in mine...

I think it's a hard game cause the starting postion (except capital offcourse) isnt great. I am curious how your wars will be going.

One advice. Always be prepare for war with nappy. Not being a spoiler. This is just general advice. I never trust him. He has attacked me over and over again while being 'friends'. He is like monty, only smarter....

I dont think anyting i have post is a spoiler, but please tell me if so!!

 

[futurehermit]

When you start to get units with large numbers of promotions, though, their replacement cost goes up and catapults become relatively less valuable.

the thing is though, you suicide a cat or two and then when your swords cut through the opposing troops, voila!, you have a bunch of city raider II swords.

i would do suicide cats until i had all my swords at city raider II. from there, i would see the odds when attacking after taking out defenses. if the odds are good, no need to suicide cats. if the odds are less than say...80%...?....maybe higher, i would suicide a cat or two.

the thing about swords is that they are not only valuable when they are promoted, they are also valuable in their *potential* to be promoted. you just know that your cat is gonna be suicided down the road anyways, but your swords...you want as many of them city raider III as you can, and asap i would say.

 

[cabert]

it's not suiciding cat or suiciding sword
it's suiciding cat or suiciding axe.

i personnaly value a lot my cats when promoted (i just love my CR III cats) but you can't do collateral damage with axes, can you?
they somewhat cheaper, but not enough to overcome the lack of
- collateral
- retreat chance

i agree with sissiutil on the path to war :
hit hard on the sout path, next stack hits wanabee copper city on the reinforcement path.
You need roads!

I fear 3 spears isn't enough.
AFAIK the AI playing mongolia sends huge stacks of horse archers.
I would use 2 spears for stack protection + 1 for each city.
Remember keshik have innate mobility. So you won't have time to build spears if you see them coming.
The alternative to actually building a lot is to do one turn of spear building every 10 turns (to avoid hammer loss), so you can whip it easy if needed in every city (needs to be size 2 at least!).

You seem to avoid tech trading too long IMHO. There are 3 of you there.
Trading alphabet isn't going to be a real problem.
In fact if you trade alphabet to both in the same turn, it's going to be no problem at all (unless you want to go for great library?). Even for a really small gain.

 

[Murky]

You should take into consideration Kublai's aggressive trait. His archers all get a free combat promotion and he probably has a barracks in each city. I've tried axe rushes against aggressive leaders only to see my axemen pay a big price for each city taken. Wouldn't it work better to get Civil Service and use Macemen?

 

[cabert]

You should take into consideration Kublai's aggressive trait. His archers all get a free combat promotion and he probably has a barracks in each city. I've tried axe rushes against aggressive leaders only to see my axemen pay a big price for each city taken. Wouldn't it work better to get Civil Service and use Macemen?

no, only melee and gunpowder gain the free combat 1.
He'll be dead before macemen come into the field.
2 agressive neighbours means early war.
Plus they share religion (although nappy and kublai aren't religion freaks), so the best target they have in sight is called mansa musa, the heathen.

 

[Murky]

no, only melee and gunpowder gain the free combat 1.
He'll be dead before macemen come into the field.
2 agressive neighbours means early war.
Plus they share religion (although nappy and kublai aren't religion freaks), so the best target they have in sight is called mansa musa, the heathen.

Ah, ok. Good call.

Still, I think the worst case scenario would be to have insufficient numbers and only increase the promotions of the defenders.

 

[Zherak_Khan]

I telltale sign you are doing something wrong, is that you are damaging units you aren't killing on the same turn.

Another such is that you have enemy units in your territory.

 

[futurehermit]

it's not suiciding cat or suiciding sword
it's suiciding cat or suiciding axe.

fair enough. i guess i'm not used to being in this situation. in my warfare i usually start with axes, then add swords, then cats, then maces. by the time i'm dealing with cats, i have swords on the field. prior to swords, it's axerush or nothing. if the city has high cultural defense + is on a hill, i leave it alone til sword + cata.

 

[aelf]

Hello. Sorry for the long absence. I was too busy to be able to post for the past 3 days, but I did manage to glance at the comments. Looks like war preparations are still a long way from being complete, going by the recommendations.

I am going to play the next round now.

 

[aelf]

Round5: 355BC - 95AD

War preparations continued...

In Kumbi Saleh, I changed the build to barracks. After one chop on the next turn, the building was completed. Hooray for the whip and the hatchet!



Timbuktu, meanwhile, whipped the swordsman it was building and started on another one. I let Djenne build a catapult when it was about to grow to size 4 and whipped it for 2 pop on the next turn, the overflow of which went to the axeman it was building.

Anyway, tech-wise, my research choice was Currency as it would put us one step closer to CoL, which we would need for courthouses after the war of acquisition. A market at Timbuktu would also be highly desirable.

Our exploring warrior headed towards Mongolian lands again for a final recon trip.



Looks like old Khan is storing up for rainy weather.

And all our wonderful plans were cast into oblivion as he declared war on the following turn...

He sent a Keshik and a swordsman to pillage Timbuktu's cow pasture immediately. I rushed a spearman at the capital to defend against the Keshik. Our warrior was bumped out of Khan's territory, and landed right next to one of his workers I took the chance to capture the worker and disband it (before it got captured back by one of the Keshiks in Beshebalik).

While the war broke out, I noticed that Napoleon was now willing to trade Polytheism. I immediately made this deal:



The Mongolian swordsman died attacking the Skirmisher at Timbuktu. The Keshik also attacked. For some reason the same Skirmisher defended instead of the spear and died Of course, the spear took care of the lucky fool after that.

Once the threat was taken care of, my ragtag army marched out to Ning-Hsia.



By the way, another Keshik came along and pillaged one of my gold mines before it died to Timbuktu's spear.

I was glad I made the trade to Napoleon earlier. Guess what the fool did shortly after that.



I forgot to take a screenshot of the war declaration. But you get the point.

Khan must've bribed him or something. The old Mongolian will pay dearly. And indeed he was beginning to do so.



We lost one axe and one sword (the sword was bad luck) capturing Ning-Hsia. One axe died on the forest hill beside Turfan defending against a catapult (probably bad luck also), but the odds were clearly odd our side. Our cities, though, were in a bad shape.

The multiple (and necessary) whipping left our population depleted and unhappy. A glance at what the situation was like:



The occassional Keshik was easy enough to handle. At one point, however, Kublai sent a Combat III axeman and an archer to pillage our other gold mine and attack Timbuktu. I had to whip the already discontent population of Timbuktu to rush a Skirmisher as the lone spear wouldn't stand a chance against the Mongolian axe. Couldn't save the gold mine but the attackers were destroyed.

A similar sight could be seen in the other city screens. I was beginning to feel despondent. Fortunately, things were going well enough at the front. Turfan fell at the cost of another CR I axe. And as luck would have it, Khan's squatter copper city became a little more special.



I am actually tempted to leave it there for some time in the hopes that Kublai would convert. Do you think there's any chance of that?

After Turfan, I went for a Mongolian city that popped up west of our empire, below our planned horse city site. It was quite a good location, despite having two peaks, as it had pigs, horses and fish in its fat cross. So I kept it.

I decided to stop on that turn. We have finished researching Currency. The unhappiness from whipping was wearing off, and the two gold mines were back in operation to save our economy. Kublai was amenable to peace, having lost more than he could stomach. Well, what did you expect, fool?



This looks like a good deal, but I haven't agreed to it yet. The decision depends on your opinions.

This is a view of our empire at this point:



The power graph:



And the GNP graph:



Kublai's real military power is broken, and Napoleon's power graph doesn't even touch his (interestingly enough, the latter isn't willing to talk). Looks like we will have easy pickings if we go all out. I'm worried about over-stretching, though.

So far, Napoleon hasn't sent a single unit at us, thereby confirming suspicions that he was bribed into the war. Likely, it is also because he has no unit to spare. His weakness is probably due to imperial overstretch, judging by the size of his territory. But, as the GNP graph shows, he is very rich (the Buddhist shrine is probably a major contributor to his wealth). While at the moment he's no threat, his strong economy will eventually translate into overwhelming strength. Ergo, early action against him is important.

However, he is still too far away. There's still an expanse of jungle and Beshebalik between us and his empire, and when we take Beshebalik, we'll probably be over-stretched already. If we choose to push into his land immediately, we would be going into an all or nothing situation. It would then be imperative to quickly and completely destroy both France and the remnants of Mongolia as the conquests would leave us poor and in no position to tech up. If Napoleon manages to get x-bows or Macemen before we can take out all his significant production centres, we would be doomed.

So what do we do next? Sign peace with Kublai and build up a stronger invasion force or continue the war? Or sign peace and put up courthouses before invading any more?

In terms of tech, CoL seems to me the natural choice to research next. But some of you may be of another opinion (eg. go for Metal Casting and then Machinery?).

Your thoughts and opinions? I think this game is going to be tough.