The Emperor Masters' Challenge

[kniteowl]

What's the happiness limit on Emp again? 3, 4, 5? (with Gold mined) lol the most the Cap can work is probably only work the goldmines and both AH resources, and also possibly a cottaged floodplain, from the current explored map so far i don't see any nearby pre-calander hapiness resources so I guess We'll be Stuck at size 4, 5 untill monarchy or we decide to convert to a religion (which I doubt) too dangerous on this level unless your allies havr been chosen.

So a mid-term question

Are you gonna research Monarchy or trade it with Alphebet (which I usually do)? If your lucky the unlucky Civ your gonna conqour has the piramids lol.

 

[malekithe]

What's the happiness limit on Emp again? 3, 4, 5?

It's 3 base happiness, +1 in the capital, +1 from gold. So, 5 total.

Here are the upcoming sources of happiness I see (along with some guess at the order):

+1 from confucian temple (maybe)
+1 from forge
+1-2 from trade
+2-3 from local calendar resources

That would give ~10 total happines, 11 in the capital. Not too bad without having to resort to hereditary rule, which could, realistically, add another 2-3 per city. Though, generally, I favor a modest 10% culture rate to hereditary rule a lot of the time. Depending on how things go, though, that might not make sense. Regardless, I don't think happiness is something we need to be worrying about too much. We're lucky to have as much as we do. I'm more concerned with (a) where are the bad guys?! and (b) how can we ensure we don't fall too far behind while we're figuring out (a)?

 

[voek]

5 is enough that early. Having an early hap resource such as gold is always a bonus. Also the combo with forges later on. I would grow till size 5 fast and with the goldmines and cow/plains you will have good production, so less need to whip/chop. To get gold online, AH and the cows and sheep need to be gained ASAP.

 

[cabert]

i'm with malekithe:
where are the bad guys?

and with voek, AH is needed to feed the gold miners.
At size 3, working the sheep and the 2 gold mines is just "perfect" (meaning enough food, high research, good production).
After that, the cows maintain high food + production if needed, and there is room for cottages.

 

[Mutineer]

Some one sad C word. For gods sake.

 

[Lynxx]

I say go for AH as soon as possible. The settler isnt needed just yet so change build to warrior to let city grow to size 3 and then build a worker, or just build one more worker right away, possibly with a chop. Your next city should be placed close to the fish resource, which you need fishing for. Another good reason to wait with the settler as you wont be able to build a workboat directly anyway.
The bronze will come online quite soon, especially with two workers. Make sure that you have built the road and have change to slavery(unless you already have) when you can start building the mine. You might need to start rushing axemen like mad to keep the babarians back...

Main thing is get atleast one of the goldmines online asap! Might want to stop the worker building farm to instead mine gold/chop forest for worker and then mine gold.

Dont be discourage by some of the rude members of this comunity. I normally end up doing a few mistakes in the begining too as i dont think that much of it and just play along and Im sure they do too, we can reload if necessary, but you cant .

About the researching. Change to AH now, then your options are more open, perhaps fishing for the next town(i recommend this) or perhaps pottery-writing?...

 

[aelf]

My apologies. I'm sure some of you have been waiting impatiently for me to say something. Unfortunately, I was too busy to reply yesterday.

I can't wait to get along with the game, but seeing the considerable controversy already generated, I think I shouldn't continue until I address certain issues.

First, I would like to say that it's quite disheartening to hear some of the comments that have been made. Starting a learning thread and getting such response is not my idea of a fun gaming experience. Part of me already rues the day I decided to start this thread. However, I will not bow to insolence. I will continue what I have started until it is finished or until there's no one left in this thread.

Now, I can't say I made the right decisions. I am out of my element here. If I want to play my own way optimally, I would choose an Aggressive civ, only settle 2 or 3 cities and start pumping out axes to take over a neighbour's lands. My first build will be a warrior, let the city grow to size two, and then a worker. A settler wouldn't be a priority until I've developed my capital enough. But I am playing random and got Mansa. And, like I said, I want to learn something new from this game. Encouraged by some of the suggestions made earlier, I decided on REX as the early strategy for this game, not something that I would normally do.

However, I decided not to get Archery so soon and instead research BW after Agriculture because, considering the vehemently stated view that axes are ultimately superior to Skrimishers, I thought why not check the area for copper. BW also allows Slavery and chopping, which are powerful tools. Being Spiritual, we could switch to Slavery immediately and, having a happiness resource to help, we should use the whip as soon as possible to set up an early empire that is the goal of REX. Hence my decision to farm the flood plains. The aim there was quick growth.

The decision for Pottery after BW was based on a suggestion (I think malekithe's) that we should get a granary early for growth and whipping purposes. I did think about AH, but I thought that I would farm two flood plains and build the gold mines first before moving on to the sheep and cows. I judged that working the flood plain farms and the gold mines would give us all of food, hammers and commerce, outshining what the cows and sheep can offer. Also, someone had pointed out earlier that the health benefit from the cows (and, by extension, the sheep) wouldn't be important so soon.

But why a settler now? That is something I found myself asking afterwards. Perhaps it was an unthinking response to my determination to attempt REX. So, finding nothing much to build after the worker and the warrior, I immediately thought of a settler (which, by the way, was meant to settle the fish city). That, I am ready to admit, is probably a mistake. Then comes a second one. Since the capital is building a settler, it isn't growing. It could work a gold mine and one farm at only 1 loss of food for the settler production but gaining 8 commerce. Unfortunately, I was gain too fixated with the idea of REX and wanted as much food for the capital as possible (so that I could build the settler faster or whip it out earlier), that I didn't think of this.

But are these 'cardinal mistakes'? I doubt it. It's good that there is debate and there are people who point them out, but I don't think they will sink the ship. Moving on from here, committed to some extent by my decisions as we are, we could continue along the same path. It's the path of fanatical REX. We would, however, change the build to a warrior to allow growth (and for more protection against the not-too-distant barb incursion), and move the worker to the forest west of it. I would then chop the forest, adding the hammers to the settler and then whip rush it for 1 pop. The capital would then continue with the warrior.

Research-wise, I would change the research to Fishing and continue with Pottery after it. This would allow the second city to build a workboat to claim the fish and, as a bonus, make Pottery cheaper. After the capital completes its second warrior, it could be set to build a worker (maybe chopped) and then a granary (which will be whip rushed). After Pottery, it would be Hunting and then AH.

How does that plan sound?

 

[dutchfire]

Find the bad guys, kill the bad guys, find new bad guys.....

 

[aelf]

Anyway, let me correct it once and for all: A flood plain farm gives 4 food. I initially thought that it was 5, realised my mistake, and later on made a typo. If you think that is so serious as to warrant your unsubscribing, I suggest you do so without delay.

 

[voek]

I dont see the need for fishery that soon. If you want to delay AH (which i think you shouldn't) then i would research pottery first and start some cottages. But you need the two farmed floodplains to support the goldmines. I dont think working the gold ASAP is under discussion, right? Then there isnt that much food left for whipping. You still would need to work the (improved) cow and/or sheep tiles. So i still advice AH prime target, but if you realy realy like pottery (granary) then dont wait for fishing.

There aren't many screenshots for city placements. Would it be worthwhile to post a few shots with raster, etc etc? I am not convinced what should be the second city right now. This has also impact on your build order rightaway.

 

[aelf]

I don't know if this is sufficient, but here's a map of the surrounding lands.

Fishing would be to work the fish at the suggested second city.

 

[Zherak_Khan]

Sounds like a great plan, aelf. I'm looking forward to seeing your solution to "My cities are capped at four and I've got nothing to build but axes which won't work well against Mansa's holy hill cities with like a bazillion Skirmishers", which seems to crop up in my Emperor games. Then again, you are Mansa yourself, and should be able to get plenty of research out of your gold mines.


In summary, what I would have done differently:
- Archery instead of bronze. (You found copper, but have still not got anything to build while growing.)
- Skirmishers instead of settler. (Closely related to my first point.)
- Mines rather than farms. (Flood farms are slow to build, I get plenty of growth while building skirmishers, I won't need flood farms because of next point.)
- AH after archery. (Seizes the hunting bonus, my worker can move on the the pastures, no need to hook up bronze because I'm not researching it.)

From then, I'd focus on Pottery (granaries and cots for new cities), Settlers (new cities, duh) and Bronze (Slavery). I'm farily certain this progression would be better, even with close-copper luck, but by all means, great thread, love to see the reasoning behind strategies different from mine.


(On a related note, I won an Emperor space-race yesterday. I went Alexander, but hardly ever warred since I had lots of land to myself, and Mansa's hilled-holy-Skirmishers as neighbours. I did capture Fredrick's "I bring a galley to settle in the middle of your land and shortly thereafter found Taoism in it"-city. From there on, I slaved like mad. Mansa was the supreme tech leader until Hyuana put his power-rating to use, which greatly delayed the AI space race. At that point, only Mansa was not Buddhist. Afterwards, Isabella and I kicked Fredrick's ass (stupid bugger switched to Confucianism). The interesting things was that because the warmongers showed muscle, I was allowed to comfortably win a peaceful space race at Emperor...in 2000?! That's really late. End of anecdote.)


Crosspostedit: About your expansion, I'm still in favor of bronze-spot A, atop of the hill. It's not just about which city is best in 1500AD, which is the fishing GPF, but about which city is best now. A coincides well with hooking up copper and can spit Axes while capitol REX'es those settlers. Fishing village will require very skillful whipping and be somewhat cumbersome to hook up - how about making it third city, grow while building workboat, then spit workers while working two farms and a fish? I would normally go with cots, but I hate growing cots which will wind up farms, GPF and all that.

 

[voek]

This helps, but can you also suply us with some closer shots for various possible city locations, like the fish city. I can see you want fishery for that city, but i am not yet convinced of the choise being the second city. I must say from this point of view i find the stone and corn interesting... Also assuming the 'bad guys' are somewhere that direction (north, east, prob. not), it's nice to REX towards your opponents.

Btw, seeing the overall map it's not very easy cityplacing, with kinda scarce resources. My guess is you need culture expansion fast. Stonehenge might be a good option?

 

[cabert]

obviously you're gonna need a lot of workers and iron working for all this jungle, if you want to go rexing

 

[kniteowl]

Explore further east of the north east area to check if its a dead end or not, if its a dead end you probably won't need to expand in that direction in the immediate future, you' probly want to expand west towards Khan.

 

[Mutineer]

aelf,

My point about animal hasbetry and pasturing cow and sheep would be.
In time one worker can farm 2 floodpalns he can pasture cow and sheep and mine one gold.
I sheep + 1 cow + 1 gold give mach more food+production+commerce then 2 floodpan farms.

Idea is not that it is a game breaking, but it is a big initial imprecision. Ofcouse with this starting position you will still can have a good outcome, but I was thinking idea was in learning.
If you count how mach more beakers and production you was able to generate if you researched farming-hunting-animal hasbentry-mining-archery (about this order to make stuff cheaper), you would undestand that my critic come form good intention of improving everyone game, not to dismiss your efforts.

 

[aelf]

Alright, I went on to review everything that I said and took a closer look at the game (I kept having to load this game while playing another one just to take a look). I realised that I wouldn't be able to change the production to warrior in the meantime, add hammers to the settler from one chop and then rush the settler for 1 pop. There's just not enough hammers yet to do that. I could wait for the city to grow to size 4 and then rush it with 2 pop, but I don't know if that is good.

I also realised that there is a problem with the fish city site that I mapped out earlier. The presence of a desert tile (excluding the one the city would be standing on) and ocean tiles (can be inferred) is distressing. It's also one tile away from the river and would lose the health bonus. And the possible sites immediately around pose their own problems.

Site A is the original suggested site. Sites B and C feature too much overlap with the capital for my comfort, and site C doesn't even receive the river's health bonus. Site D seems to be the best site, as it will claim the silk as well, but we'll need a border expansion before it gains excess to the fish (the case for site C too, for that matter).

Here are the possible sites of the corn and stone city.

I think site A would be the best choice if it does not another peak west of the one within its fat cross. Site B would certainly include two peaks. Both sites, however, require IW to be settled and feature two desert tiles.

A dotmap of future spice and silk city.

Site A features some overlap with capital while site B is deeper in the jungle. Both require IW as well.

Looks like in the near future we can either settle the fish or the copper city. As an idea, the fish city is probably better. However, seeing things as they are, I think we need to consider the next city's placement carefully.

 

[aelf]

Northeast already looks like a dead end to me. To the east, it's only the copper city and then the sea.

aelf,

My point about animal hasbetry and pasturing cow and sheep would be.
In time one worker can farm 2 floodpalns he can pasture cow and sheep and mine one gold.
I sheep + 1 cow + 1 gold give mach more food+production+commerce then 2 floodpan farms.

Idea is not that it is a game breaking, but it is a big initial imprecision. Ofcouse with this starting position you will still can have a good outcome, but I was thinking idea was in learning.
If you count how mach more beakers and production you was able to generate if you researched farming-hunting-animal hasbentry-mining-archery (about this order to make stuff cheaper), you would undestand that my critic come form good intention of improving everyone game, not to dismiss your efforts.

Don't mistake me. I have great respect for your views and I understand your intentions perfectly. You are contributing to this thread exactly as I hope people would. Let's take a look at the figures.

Flood plain farms = 4F1C
Gold mine on plains = 3H9C
Cow pasture on plains = 3F3H
Sheep pasture on plains = 4F1H1C

It appears that, assuming 4 pop, working 1 farm, sheep pasture and 2 gold mines wins 2 farms and 2 gold mines by 1H. You are right.

However, if I switch to AH now (17 turns to research), I will lose the beakers put into Pottery. I can move the worker to the gold hill to mine it on the next turn, and the gold mine will speed up AH research (probably still at a loss of some Pottery beakers, though). But is that worth the 1H gain? Or should I stick to my course?

 

[voek]

Well not exactly i think. When you work the cow tile instead of the farmed flood plains, you still grow with 1F (slowly) , but gain 3H. I won't say you should take the cow, BUT being able to work the cow can make you more flexible. And if i am correct, it will construct a settler/worker faster.

About the losing beakers on pottery. You don't lose beakers when you switch research, right? Only the earlier collected beakers start to diminish after time. Someone remember that rule? (When and how much do you start to lose beakers when you switch research?)

 

[Mutineer]

Rigth now you have to finish your operation, seens you have 2 floodplan farms soon and after that you can start to mine gold. So, from current situation you can delay animal husbentry.
about next city. I think you did not uncover enogth near by fog to decide it's location and purpouse.

Fish city could be good because it will remove one direction of posible coming barbarians. Stone city look atractive because stone could be usefull. If you want to stick to Rex, then garden wander become very powerfull.
Fish city is probably bettter as second city because:
It is food ritch,
It is not so expoused to barbarian,
it is coastal.

On other hand, Animal husbentry could give you location of hourses, startegic resource that could effect your second city placement.

Personally I would probably shift research to hunting-animal hasbentry why growing city to cise 3 as minimum producing warrior. I would not hurry up setler, but use worker turnd to mine gold after finishing farming. I believe speeeding up research would be more beneficial and give you more information about where to put setler.