The End of NES2 V.

[Insane_Panda]

There wasn't much of an Enlightenment, but the parliamentary monarchy has evolved by itself, like it did in OTL - IMHO the Enlightenment had a rather secondary role in it, if we look at the British example for instance. Many European countries have a parliamentary monarchy, BUT the monarch still does retain much real power, varying from place to place. Parliaments evolved from the already-existant representative bodies - again, like in Britain in OTL. The French parlements weren't dissolved, neither was the Russian zemsky sobor, etc.

And is France currently a semi-parliamentary monarchy under the rule of the old Bourbons? (Yes, If this ever goes into a NES I am forming aspirations of reviving the glory that is France And this time I wont not send orders several times!)

 

[andis-1]

Well, it looks sort of good one, but then again there are only 18 nations which can be played, others are either some weak african nations or rebellions.

 

[Insane_Panda]

18 is more than enough. Any more and it becomes hell for the mod, and this isn't including possible rebel groups aswell.

 

[Thlayli]

Eh, were there any more in NES2 V? I think that ITNES might actually haveless playable nations, not sure...

But yes...this is going to be fun. When do we start, das?

 

[tossi]

This one looks good .

Just wondering: Poland allying with the Teutonic Order? They weren't quite the friendly with each other... Tannenberg... .

And: I reserve Europe and Asia (including middle east). Sorry guys .

 

[Contempt]

I like that Alt history. Should be alot of fun, and I'd hope to snag Sweden again if this NES is chosen...

 

[Stormbringer]

I like the alt-history. The only thing that somewhat bothers me is the absence of an English power, since even before the union with Scotland England had a reasonable colonial empire, but it is a small tid bit, and I would gladly play.

What is it with China being super strong in every single alt-history?

 

[Disenfrancised]

I like the alt-history. The only thing that somewhat bothers me is the absence of an English power, since even before the union with Scotland England had a reasonable colonial empire, but it is a small tid bit, and I would gladly play.

I think its due to being a french puppet (observe the occupation of Dover), and probably being not allowed to have one.

Oh Britannia how you have fallen

 

[das]

the FK came out on top from the beginning.

Arguable, although it was somewhat overpowered...

And is France currently a semi-parliamentary monarchy under the rule of the old Bourbons?

Oui, oui.

only 18 nations which can be played

I counted 23.

When do we start, das?

Not sure yet, but I'll tell you as soon as it becomes clear.

Poland allying with the Teutonic Order? They weren't quite the friendly with each other... Tannenberg... .

The Teutons didn't really have much of a choice - the Order begun falling apart as in OTL, and the Russians invaded through its territory in a quasi-Schlieffen (quasi because the war was already on). It lasted just long enough to declare war.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Well, China certaintly had the potential to be strong (and in 1740 it was one of the largest and richest nations in the world, with a huge industrial base), and British involvement in China was a leading factor in it's demise (Opium proliferation, etc, etc.). However, in our world, it was corruption, European manipulation, and poor management that lead China to it's downfall, and it seems that in this timeline China starts off relatively strong, maintains a much more agressive foriegn policy, and has not been maligned by the European powers yet. China didn't really begin its downward spiral 'till the beginning of the 19th century, yet the seeds for such a spiral were sown earlier.

 

[Thlayli]

Yeah...but the Qing were idiots when it came to modernization, one of the key factors that led to their demise. See the Sino-Japanese war for the clearest example of that.

But admittedly, we could have a low-tech yet powerful China.

 

[andis-1]

Oh well. If it is going to be this one, then I reserve ottoman empire. If someone takes, I can promise I will rebell as every possible ethnical minority.

 

[Thlayli]

I would like to express profound interest in Spain...

Could you tell me more about the strength and stability of the Spanish government, das? I'd hope that the gold from the New World hasn't caused an inflationary economic problem, has it?

 

[Insane_Panda]

But admittedly, we could have a low-tech yet powerful China.

That was what China was in the 1700's. It wasn't advanced, yet it was rich and could command an army of millions.

See the Sino-Japanese war for the clearest example of that.

I've read that the Chinese ships used during that war (given to China by the French or other Europeans) were more powerful than the Japanese, but due to Chinese idiocy during the conflict, the Japanese ended up inflicting a harsh victory on China.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Could you tell me more about the strength and stability of the Spanish government, das?

I express the same interest, only not in Spain, but rather in France.

 

[Thlayli]

I've read that the Chinese ships used during that war (given to China by the French or other Europeans) were more powerful than the Japanese, but due to Chinese idiocy during the conflict, the Japanese ended up inflicting a harsh victory on China.

That's true. But the Japanese had also studied Western tactics and modernized their armies and doctrine accordingly.

The Chinese, as usual, had a numerical superiority, but the Japanese had higher quality military leadership and better troops.

 

[Stormbringer]

Well, China certaintly had the potential to be strong (and in 1740 it was one of the largest and richest nations in the world, with a huge industrial base), and British involvement in China was a leading factor in it's demise (Opium proliferation, etc, etc.). However, in our world, it was corruption, European manipulation, and poor management that lead China to it's downfall, and it seems that in this timeline China starts off relatively strong, maintains a much more agressive foriegn policy, and has not been maligned by the European powers yet. China didn't really begin its downward spiral 'till the beginning of the 19th century, yet the seeds for such a spiral were sown earlier.

I studied that part of history a lot, and according to Landes and Abu-Lughod China could not have at any point become stronger than the European powers of the industrial era. Look up those two authors, they make quite different arguments, but come to the same conclusions, very interresting read.

 

[Thlayli]

I'm going to agree with Storm here. Even if the Opium wars never happened, the problems of the Taiping and Boxer rebellions wouldn't have gone away, and the eventual pressure to modernize would have clashed with an isolationist (rejectionist is a better word) Qing monarchy, particularly the Empress, who refused Western innovation of all types.

Of course, it might be very different ATL, the Qing could take an entirely separate path...

 

[Insane_Panda]

You are probably much more read on the subject than I am, but I don't think China is stronger than any major European power (France, Spain, Portugal) in this NES. I do think its possible to have a large, relatively powerful China though. We are only looking at the borders of China on the map right now, and certaintly its not outrageous to think China expanded as it does in this map.

Also, do note that it is currently 1740, Taiping and Boxer rebellions don't occur for another 100 and 150 years, respectively. China, at 1740, was riding on a wave of success and expansion. Kangxi and his successor Yong Zheng were diligent, hardworking men, and under their reign China flourished.

 

[Stormbringer]

What it comes down to is this. China traded heavily with Europe before the Black Death. As soon as the plague came that trade was cut off and as a result you had a clash in the Chinese politics between isolationist/traditionalist confusians and the more open minded expantionist kind that backed the treasure fleet expeditions, etc. The fact that revenue was falling proved to be the tipping point and China simply could not support the huge fleets that traveled to India, etc. As a result the isolationist confusian faction emerged to be the dominant one, and China never really developed past 1450's, just went into isolationsim and continued to live the way it did. So as long as we have the plague and confusionism there is really no way China would become an advanced expantionist power in the East.