The End of NES2 V.

[Thlayli]

Also, do note that it is currently 1740, Taiping and Boxer rebellions don't occur for another 100 and 150 years, respectively.

Right. I just assumed that since we're in the Industrial Age, China would be having similar Industrial Age problems.

 

[Insane_Panda]

That confucianist faction was dominant, until Nurhaci's Manchu tribes swept down in the 17th century and swept that all away. China, during the beginning of the (Manchu - we must note that the rulers of the Qing Dynasty were not traditional confucianists, and thus thought very differently compared to the Ming Emperors and the Ming Court officials, until perhaps we get into the later Qing Emperors) Qing Dynasty, was quite expansive. Infact, it was during the late 17th century that OTL Qing China fought several border conflicts with Russia - border conflicts which it triumphed in. The Qing Empire of 1740 encompassed much of what Das shows it encompasses on that map.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Right. I just assumed that since we're in the Industrial Age, China would be having similar Industrial Age problems.

Well, you also have to take into account the Emperors that were leading China and WHY the rebellions occured in the first place. China's real problems only flared up in the late 18th century.

These rebellions occured because of bad Imperial Management and European interference in China - European interference which has not started to a huge extent yet.

 

[Stormbringer]

Agreed completely, but by that point it was 300 years behind Europe in technology, and as long as that is represented in the NES its all good. The last NES had China ahead of many European powers in technology, which bothered me.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Yeah, I can see what you are saying. A China crisscrossed with railways isn't really realistic.

 

[tossi]

To make it clear for everyone:

I reserve 1. Ottomans 2. Russia 3. Spain 4. Poland 5. China 6. Portugal and possible 7. India

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Das, when are you going to start this one? Next week? 2-3 weeks? 1 month?

 

[Stormbringer]

I don't think Das is taking reservations, but if he is I would like Russia. I have some plans for it that are very different from real life.

 

[Disenfrancised]

I don't think Das is taking reservations, but if he is I would like Russia. I have some plans for it that are very different from real life.

That sounds like something fun to see. Btw, Russia verses China is very fun...or at least I found it so .

I thinki'll be taking a particular rebel group, or Spain if no one has grabbed it by then...

 

[Thlayli]

If anyone else takes Spain, I will instantly join as Catalan, Basque, Mexican, and Columbian rebels, probably by making clones of myself.

Edit: Or I might just take Portugal...y'know.

Also, this NES should be easier for das, probably because people won't be sending multiple PM orders anymore, with the new 30,000 character limit.

 

[Harleqin]

I also doubt that there will be any reservations. I would be highly interested in Denmark-Norway though. Does it come with Iceland and colonies on Greenland?

 

[Insane_Panda]

If any one takes France then...well...I'll cry.

 

[Israelite9191]

I still prefer ITNES, but if this happens, I definately want Hungary-Poland-Germany. Of course, the Junkers will have to be delt with in prime Magyar fashion, but that can always be arranged. I do have some ideas for a Central European nation like this. A secondary, but not by far, power seems just right for me.

 

[Disenfrancised]

I also doubt that there will be any reservations. I would be highly interested in Denmark-Norway though. Does it come with Iceland and colonies on Greenland?

Indeed it does come with the whole of Greenland! But wait there's more! Buy one within the next 20 minutes and get the Faroe islands as a special one time offer!

 

[alex994]

Agreed completely, but by that point it was 300 years behind Europe in technology, and as long as that is represented in the NES its all good. The last NES had China ahead of many European powers in technology, which bothered me.

Are you saying that OTL 18th Century China was equivalent in technology to OTL 15th Century Europe… Because that’s a piece of **** It wasn’t until the Industrial Revolution entered full steam in the 19th Century that China “lost” the military race with the mass production of weaponry that the European Nations were able to produce. Also, you did forget to note that the technology of the OTL 15th Century China when it first entered isolation was in many ways MUCH more advanced then the technology of 15th Century Europe. Irrigation, and medicine are two primary examples of the advances 18th Century China had over the equivalent European technology.

The armies of the Emperor Kangxi, Yongzheng and the earlier part of Qianlong were a match for any European Army with a much larger industrial base to well too boast. Though I admit having railroads crisscrossing China like in the last nes is unrealistic

I express interest in Qing China, anyone who takes it will die a most painful death.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Erm, Kangxi's armies could only defeat European armies due to their vast size. Qing China did NOT have the technology to face up to, say, the army of France of the same period. China could have only won due to its masses of men.

China was, in all military technology and doctrine, backwards compared to Europe by this time.

 

[Israelite9191]

Whatever the reason, it would still have won. Isn't that what matters?

 

[Disenfrancised]

Whatever the reason, it would still have won. Isn't that what matters?

Well no, because europe's technological advantage allowed a power projection that China's manpower advantage did not - hence everywhere but china being owned by the europeans...

 

[North King]

European technology in military fields was definitely superior to the Chinese by the 1700s, maybe 1600s. Their military tactics, training, morale, and discipline was better. All in all, China just was behind Europe OTL in military fields in the 1700s, and starting to lag in domestic technology, too. If you want a China of similar technology to the Europeans, the PoD has to be pre-1400, IMO.

 

[Israelite9191]

I would have to disagree. While there may be a slight difference in technology level, certainly China would not have railroads crossing the country unless there was an earlier and more drastic PoD, China still has teh aformentioned manpower advantage. It also has a still surmountable technology deficit, not an insurmountable one. Good leadership would provide the necessary boost to China that could result in a rise in power. China is a nation full of potential and well positioned to take advantage of that potential, it just needs strong leadership. If the nation were an NPC that were to follow the natural line of succession and the characteristics of those leaders, then China would fall, undoubtably. But as a PC, its position is just disadvantaged enough to make it fun, not impossible.

EDIT: NK posted while I was writing. So I am primarily disagreeing with Dis, although most of my argument still aplies to NK's post.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Das, what is the name of the Indian nation? Is it Mughal or Hindu? And finally, which European power does it favor? Portugal or France?