vranasm
Deity
that is interesting, since I remember seeing him signup in SGOtM... that would be indeed mysterious...
but I guess we all had such phases in life (like me back in the March/April)
The Entire Thought Experiment
- Thread starter Cam_H
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that is interesting, since I remember seeing him signup in SGOtM... that would be indeed mysterious...
but I guess we all had such phases in life (like me back in the March/April)
Manco Capac
Friday,13 June,I Collapse
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I saw it too. I think Lymond is just running away from his past duties. Har har.
As if I'm better occasionally...
As if I'm better occasionally...
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alright...a bit of a PPP:
I think we are ok here and should press the war with China as much as possible unless it gets unwieldy. We have a good amount of units. Main need is for Trebs and I believe we can get some out pretty quick.
I'm torn on upgrading some units vs. saving gold for tech. I'd prefer to focus on Paper immediately (we should have teched it first), so I will switch.
1) Kish produces scout this turn for medic then trebs
2) Switch Pike builds to Trebs this turn and whip next turn
3) Uruk continues slow build of Mace. Grow into scientists
4) NE cities focus on infra and workers/settlers for now. Too bad that Elephant did not move to the front line.
5) Switch to paper immediately. If we had this now we could have been trading maps for gold. Paper in 4 turns. Maybe we get GS for Edu bulb...cross fingers
6) Workers next to Kish move up to create road in jungle to quickly move stack near Xian to S side of Nanjing to meet Kish stack.
7) Move on Nanjing and then Shanghai and Beijing.
8) White Peace with Shaka. No point in being in war with him unless we can bribe someone on him, which we can't
Otherwise avoid upgrading units unless necessary.
Qin bribe of SB is a bit of a concern though. If we had enough power we could demand gold from SB, but it is not high enough.
I think we are ok here and should press the war with China as much as possible unless it gets unwieldy. We have a good amount of units. Main need is for Trebs and I believe we can get some out pretty quick.
I'm torn on upgrading some units vs. saving gold for tech. I'd prefer to focus on Paper immediately (we should have teched it first), so I will switch.
1) Kish produces scout this turn for medic then trebs
2) Switch Pike builds to Trebs this turn and whip next turn
3) Uruk continues slow build of Mace. Grow into scientists
4) NE cities focus on infra and workers/settlers for now. Too bad that Elephant did not move to the front line.
5) Switch to paper immediately. If we had this now we could have been trading maps for gold. Paper in 4 turns. Maybe we get GS for Edu bulb...cross fingers
6) Workers next to Kish move up to create road in jungle to quickly move stack near Xian to S side of Nanjing to meet Kish stack.
7) Move on Nanjing and then Shanghai and Beijing.
8) White Peace with Shaka. No point in being in war with him unless we can bribe someone on him, which we can't
Otherwise avoid upgrading units unless necessary.
Qin bribe of SB is a bit of a concern though. If we had enough power we could demand gold from SB, but it is not high enough.
The plan looks good to me.
It's a shame, but I don't think that we can get that potential Medic up to get the Morale promotion, even if he's built in Eridu as I think he'll be 1XP short. Still, I guess that it's not a problem given our forces are all 1
.
Resource trades might yield some extra
... Washington (and Boudica for that elusive 1) has some if you're prepared to take a chance with renegotiating current deals and hoping that the surpluses don't vanish.
Best of luck on the war front.
It's a shame, but I don't think that we can get that potential Medic up to get the Morale promotion, even if he's built in Eridu as I think he'll be 1XP short. Still, I guess that it's not a problem given our forces are all 1
.Resource trades might yield some extra
... Washington (and Boudica for that elusive 1) has some if you're prepared to take a chance with renegotiating current deals and hoping that the surpluses don't vanish.Best of luck on the war front.
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Okay...TS is done
We made a good push into China with very few losses - just some Trebs. I stopped after offensive straight to Beijing. Hate to stop with the war still going, but I exceed 10 turns and felt we may have some decisions to make anyway.
I switched immediately to Paper, which finished in 4 turns. I made several map trades such as the ones below which netted at least a good 500g. In fact, I was able to trade with these folks again for the around the same amount due to getting other maps. The gold really helped pushing through Philo and Edu, which is about done.
Some Map Trades:
I pushed on Nanjing. Defenses fell easily in 1 turn since I think Folket had made an attempt at the city. However, some beefed up LBs made for hard work on the trebs. City fell easily though.
Nanjing:
I took just 1t to heal and pushed on to Shanghai. I had several trebs moving up in the meantime, so we had a good stack of them. Shanghai fell with only 1 lost treb.
Shanghai:
Lincoln tried to stop the war via AP right before Nanjing, but I was having none of that. Only two Jew cities at the time so no biggy. However, at some point after Shanghai another vote was called to stop trading with Washington. I did not like it but I wasn't going to defy again. I knew it would pass and it did.
We've taken a big hit on GLH trade routes for now since no OB with SB and Linc is blocked by a Chinese city, which we should take before ending the war.
Damn AP:
Only issue with Beijing is the slow crawl up there. Qin was constantly hitting my stack with cats and horse archers, but they held strong. Beijing actually fell quite easily. I don't recall losing a unit.
Nice goodies in Beijing, including the PyraCAMids. We can consider switching to Rep at some point.
Beijing:
China:
Tech:
General Notes:
1) I did something a bit odd and off the PPP. I used the GG on the medic spear we had. The main reason is that I did not want to slow treb production in Kish. We needed them asap. (I also thought we might get to Morale with him, but we need to kill a hurt unit or two first) With advanced units now the spear will be fine in a stack. (Too bad we upgraded the woody Mace from Vulture or I woulda used him instead)
2) We popped a GM in the latter part of the TS. I held onto him for now. We might just want to use him for Golden Age after the war or at an optimal time. Switch to Rep or wait for something like Eco to get Free Market, if we can use it. Free Religion would probably be a good idea. (We have MoM now by the way)
3) NE cities are coming along nicely with basic infra. The fish/cow city will be great soon to pump out some more settlers/workers to fill out that land. We can divert some units soon to take that barb city which might be key for us for the horses. (I have no clue why we settled Harrapan (sp?) where we did and isolate that fish. We coulda had 2 good cities there)
4) Shanghai is crap - thought about razing it - but it did give us Marble. Lib>Nat or MT might be a good play for some Cur action. More land would be nice for Space.
I think we can build HE in Xian. It should have nice production. Beijing could go for Maoi.
5) We have a stack to take city NE of Nanjing and can move Beijing stack down to the last Chinese city in the SW. Leave China the island for now and end war. SB bribe is still a concern though, so we may want to divert some units down to Eridu. (In hindsight, I probably should have split stack and moved to one of the other cities sooner, but I just wasn't sure what I'd be dealing with in Beijing)
6) I wasted no gold on unit upgrades. I wasn't necessary
Yeah, I made lots of resource trades/renegotiations. Its something I look at every turn. We lost a fat 16gpt on the Wash stop-trade...ugh.
I'd kinda like to take out SB. He may be a problem the rest of the game.
We made a good push into China with very few losses - just some Trebs. I stopped after offensive straight to Beijing. Hate to stop with the war still going, but I exceed 10 turns and felt we may have some decisions to make anyway.
I switched immediately to Paper, which finished in 4 turns. I made several map trades such as the ones below which netted at least a good 500g. In fact, I was able to trade with these folks again for the around the same amount due to getting other maps. The gold really helped pushing through Philo and Edu, which is about done.
Some Map Trades:
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
I pushed on Nanjing. Defenses fell easily in 1 turn since I think Folket had made an attempt at the city. However, some beefed up LBs made for hard work on the trebs. City fell easily though.
Nanjing:
Spoiler :
I took just 1t to heal and pushed on to Shanghai. I had several trebs moving up in the meantime, so we had a good stack of them. Shanghai fell with only 1 lost treb.
Shanghai:
Spoiler :
Lincoln tried to stop the war via AP right before Nanjing, but I was having none of that. Only two Jew cities at the time so no biggy. However, at some point after Shanghai another vote was called to stop trading with Washington. I did not like it but I wasn't going to defy again. I knew it would pass and it did.
We've taken a big hit on GLH trade routes for now since no OB with SB and Linc is blocked by a Chinese city, which we should take before ending the war.
Damn AP:
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Only issue with Beijing is the slow crawl up there. Qin was constantly hitting my stack with cats and horse archers, but they held strong. Beijing actually fell quite easily. I don't recall losing a unit.
Nice goodies in Beijing, including the PyraCAMids. We can consider switching to Rep at some point.
Beijing:
Spoiler :
China:
Spoiler :
Tech:
Spoiler :
General Notes:
1) I did something a bit odd and off the PPP. I used the GG on the medic spear we had. The main reason is that I did not want to slow treb production in Kish. We needed them asap. (I also thought we might get to Morale with him, but we need to kill a hurt unit or two first) With advanced units now the spear will be fine in a stack. (Too bad we upgraded the woody Mace from Vulture or I woulda used him instead)
2) We popped a GM in the latter part of the TS. I held onto him for now. We might just want to use him for Golden Age after the war or at an optimal time. Switch to Rep or wait for something like Eco to get Free Market, if we can use it. Free Religion would probably be a good idea. (We have MoM now by the way)
3) NE cities are coming along nicely with basic infra. The fish/cow city will be great soon to pump out some more settlers/workers to fill out that land. We can divert some units soon to take that barb city which might be key for us for the horses. (I have no clue why we settled Harrapan (sp?) where we did and isolate that fish. We coulda had 2 good cities there)
4) Shanghai is crap - thought about razing it - but it did give us Marble. Lib>Nat or MT might be a good play for some Cur action. More land would be nice for Space.
I think we can build HE in Xian. It should have nice production. Beijing could go for Maoi.
5) We have a stack to take city NE of Nanjing and can move Beijing stack down to the last Chinese city in the SW. Leave China the island for now and end war. SB bribe is still a concern though, so we may want to divert some units down to Eridu. (In hindsight, I probably should have split stack and moved to one of the other cities sooner, but I just wasn't sure what I'd be dealing with in Beijing)
6) I wasted no gold on unit upgrades. I wasn't necessary
Yeah, I made lots of resource trades/renegotiations. Its something I look at every turn. We lost a fat 16gpt on the Wash stop-trade...ugh.
I'd kinda like to take out SB. He may be a problem the rest of the game.
vranasm
Deity
I would like to have around 30 cities before we aim for space....
I think we should at least finish the Chinese on our continent...
we probably have no flota so taking rest of chinese cities have to wait
nice progress btw L...
Actually I don't think Free religion is good for us... we will build ton of stuff and we need to be in OR and spread AP religion for the bonus hammers...
We can discuss about monasteries though, since we will hit SciMeth at point
Which route we go? Corps or SP? For me SP is usually easier to MM.
I think we should at least finish the Chinese on our continent...
we probably have no flota so taking rest of chinese cities have to wait
nice progress btw L...
Actually I don't think Free religion is good for us... we will build ton of stuff and we need to be in OR and spread AP religion for the bonus hammers...
We can discuss about monasteries though, since we will hit SciMeth at point
Which route we go? Corps or SP? For me SP is usually easier to MM.
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I think we have to go Corps for the variants (Speaking of which, Secretary Cam, could we get a survey of the variants to date?)
Problem with Religion focus is that we've already ignored it for the good part of the game. The world is pretty much Jewish, so spreading AP could be an issue if we ever have to defy. I figure we will be fighting some Jews here along the way. Not sure the hammer sink is work it at this point. I'd have to give it more thought.
Problem with Religion focus is that we've already ignored it for the good part of the game. The world is pretty much Jewish, so spreading AP could be an issue if we ever have to defy. I figure we will be fighting some Jews here along the way. Not sure the hammer sink is work it at this point. I'd have to give it more thought.
vranasm
Deity
we probably will build factory, cp, granary, forge, CH (depends on corps) everywhere
markets, grocers, supermarkets are usually worthwhile
observatories for research labs and research labs
IW somewhere
unis, OU will be built without OR probably
libraries are questionable, but I can see us building them everywhere too
judish temple (80H cost - 25%) will provide itself 2 hammers (paying in 40 - 25% turns),
mish costs 80H to get 25% hammer multiplier (aka will we spare more then 80H on those builds in the future?)...
I have doubts about monasteries, but I can forsee OR beeing very useful for us.
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OR is very useful. I make use of it as much as I can, but it can be situational. I usually have all that set up early in the game. yeah, you always have buildings to build but there may be alternatives. OR is going to do very little for us in the short term. Edu is in so Unis will start coming before we likely get anything out in terms of Jud. Later we can look at Mining and Sushi to boosts research and hammers.
It also can get really caging fighting wars against the brotherhood of Zion and the AP. We can try to do what we can in the AP timer window, but we may find us in situations where we have to defy. We've already killed AP hammers in a couple of important cities for quite some time.
We could opt to just go with Bud and ally closely with Boudi, while taking out all the Jews. Spread that around instead and avoid Jud spread as much as possible.
Not saying I'm opposed to OR, but I'm leery about the whole Jud/AP thing if we continue to war. If not then sure, lets do it.
FR can still be quite good and we can try for Mining for the later infra. We won't need all that infra everywhere.
It also can get really caging fighting wars against the brotherhood of Zion and the AP. We can try to do what we can in the AP timer window, but we may find us in situations where we have to defy. We've already killed AP hammers in a couple of important cities for quite some time.
We could opt to just go with Bud and ally closely with Boudi, while taking out all the Jews. Spread that around instead and avoid Jud spread as much as possible.
Not saying I'm opposed to OR, but I'm leery about the whole Jud/AP thing if we continue to war. If not then sure, lets do it.
FR can still be quite good and we can try for Mining for the later infra. We won't need all that infra everywhere.
Nice turnset! Pyramids ... 
... Representation?? 
I agree on the proposal to take Guangzhou and Hangzhou, and then 'call it a day'.
I am open-minded on the religious question. I'd probably stick with 'No State Religion' for a while and at some point fairly soon build a Jewish Monastery in Kish and use it for Jewish Missionary production for the AP
... but as I say, I'm not especially driven to one particular approach on this question at the moment.
Roster:
Variants:
We've covered the 'Hall of Heroes' mandatory requirements and the 'Murder of Crows' optional one. Provided that we're committed to pursuing the optional variants, we'll probably want to grab the Horses from Bantu to address both 'Bucking Bronco' and 'Shock Jockey'. Washington has a surplus of the Horses resource, but he was unwilling to 'Horse trade' earlier.
... Representation?? I agree on the proposal to take Guangzhou and Hangzhou, and then 'call it a day'.
I am open-minded on the religious question. I'd probably stick with 'No State Religion' for a while and at some point fairly soon build a Jewish Monastery in Kish and use it for Jewish Missionary production for the AP
... but as I say, I'm not especially driven to one particular approach on this question at the moment.Roster:
nocho
vranasm
pigswill
astre
Folket
lymond
Sengir << Up
Cam
vranasm
pigswill
astre
Folket
lymond
Sengir << Up
Cam
Variants:
We've covered the 'Hall of Heroes' mandatory requirements and the 'Murder of Crows' optional one. Provided that we're committed to pursuing the optional variants, we'll probably want to grab the Horses from Bantu to address both 'Bucking Bronco' and 'Shock Jockey'. Washington has a surplus of the Horses resource, but he was unwilling to 'Horse trade' earlier.
Took me an awful long time (had to nuke my installation before I could get civ running again), but here's my PPP:
Remove China from the continent, take peace
When we have peace, launch GA, build infra
Zimbir can build some settlers/workers. I see two dotted cities; I'll try to get them done. @Lymond: are we in need of workers? It's kinda hard to guess in a game which I haven't played yet.
Sent some units towards Bantu to grab the horses
Tech: Finish Edu. Then Nat for another GA > GP > Lib? Or did we have other plans? I might have missed them.
Given the variants (I assuming we want them all), Corps are pretty much mandatory.
Not sure on the Religion stuff though. I think we're aiming for a peaceful endgame, so we shouldn't have to defy that much. Brothers-in-fate-anger is annoying though. I'd like some more input on this, if possible (and on the rest of the plan as well).
Remove China from the continent, take peace
When we have peace, launch GA, build infra
Zimbir can build some settlers/workers. I see two dotted cities; I'll try to get them done. @Lymond: are we in need of workers? It's kinda hard to guess in a game which I haven't played yet.
Sent some units towards Bantu to grab the horses
Tech: Finish Edu. Then Nat for another GA > GP > Lib? Or did we have other plans? I might have missed them.
Given the variants (I assuming we want them all), Corps are pretty much mandatory.
Not sure on the Religion stuff though. I think we're aiming for a peaceful endgame, so we shouldn't have to defy that much. Brothers-in-fate-anger is annoying though. I'd like some more input on this, if possible (and on the rest of the plan as well).
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We should tech Lib at least down to one turn and see where the AIs stand techwise. Lib is a given as of now, with Linc the biggest threat. If he appears to be heading on another tech path - like Econ - then we might be able to go Natio and Lib>MT.
We need more workers. We can use some of the newer cities to produce workers and settlers to fill out land, while core cities throw up Unis. I forget if we have stone or no.
Not sure if we want to continue some warfare with Medi units. We could probably take out SB with Mace/trebs. However, we will need to note the AP timer when declaring. SBs land is not great but I think he has several seafood which will be good for us.
hmmm....we need to get our hands on a GM now that I think of it. Not sure if Econ is in the cards, but we should start trying to farm one soon.
We need more workers. We can use some of the newer cities to produce workers and settlers to fill out land, while core cities throw up Unis. I forget if we have stone or no.
Not sure if we want to continue some warfare with Medi units. We could probably take out SB with Mace/trebs. However, we will need to note the AP timer when declaring. SBs land is not great but I think he has several seafood which will be good for us.
hmmm....we need to get our hands on a GM now that I think of it. Not sure if Econ is in the cards, but we should start trying to farm one soon.
I'm still not too sure what our best option with that Great Merchant is. I lean toward a Golden Age, but if so, I feel that we need more time to re-grow populations, have Chinese cities come out of resistance, agree on a religion and then infect cities that might want to leverage pacifism, etc.
I'm pretty confident that we'll get another Great Merchant by chance or design before Sushi's available to us.
I'd like to get going on Maoi 'somewhere'. I noted that lymond likes Beijing, which (with Hangzhou imho as an alternative) makes a good option if we go with the 'making a good city better' approach. Scythian and Bad Tibra present as options for the 'making crappy city more useful' approach.
I'd still like a Jewish Monastery built somewhere (maybe Kish), as I'm happy to go along with vranasm's push to get Jewish Temples and Monasteries up. I'm wondering if along the way whether we should gift a Jewish Missionary to Boudica, so that Ireland isn't a 'heathen' nation in the view of the Apostolic Palace and we don't have our diplomatic hand forced with Ireland-Columbia relations.
Stone's in a couple of places ... Zulu heartland, and that spot to our south that we didn't settle earlier in the game that Sitting Bull's now got.
I'm pretty confident that we'll get another Great Merchant by chance or design before Sushi's available to us.
I'd like to get going on Maoi 'somewhere'. I noted that lymond likes Beijing, which (with Hangzhou imho as an alternative) makes a good option if we go with the 'making a good city better' approach. Scythian and Bad Tibra present as options for the 'making crappy city more useful' approach.
I'd still like a Jewish Monastery built somewhere (maybe Kish), as I'm happy to go along with vranasm's push to get Jewish Temples and Monasteries up. I'm wondering if along the way whether we should gift a Jewish Missionary to Boudica, so that Ireland isn't a 'heathen' nation in the view of the Apostolic Palace and we don't have our diplomatic hand forced with Ireland-Columbia relations.
Stone's in a couple of places ... Zulu heartland, and that spot to our south that we didn't settle earlier in the game that Sitting Bull's now got.
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Just note that I think 2 of our cities, including Kish, won't get AP hammers for some indefinite time.
I agree that if we do a Golden Age we should a) finish out the war b) get some growth back. The exception would be if we had a strong gp producing city already in place, but that is not the case.
I also agree that the likelihood of another GM is high. We might want to throw up a market in Uruk to make that more likely, running merchants there instead of scientists.
While I'm fine with spreading the AP religion, I'm not sold on adopting a religion long term. Temporarily in a Golden Age is okay for temp Caste/Pac.
I agree that if we do a Golden Age we should a) finish out the war b) get some growth back. The exception would be if we had a strong gp producing city already in place, but that is not the case.
I also agree that the likelihood of another GM is high. We might want to throw up a market in Uruk to make that more likely, running merchants there instead of scientists.
While I'm fine with spreading the AP religion, I'm not sold on adopting a religion long term. Temporarily in a Golden Age is okay for temp Caste/Pac.
vranasm
Deity
AP temples and monasteries provide the hammer benefits even if we would be in free religion...
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