The Entire Thought Experiment

[Sengir]

I'm afraid I'm not yet available for play (I don't even have time to visit the forums regularly atm). Should clear up after next week though, but for now I need a skip.

 

[lymond]

I'm happy enough with either bulbing or trade mission.

Looks like we have 3 for Currency bulb so far

I think that Construction should be fairly high priority, but can see the attraction of Monarchy.

I guess the question begs if we intend to fight either China or SB early. If not, then construction probably is not good. However, given the variant we have to hit these guys at some point.

In case you miss it, the Warrior in Xian should move to Kish.

Personally I'd stick with Uruk for the Scientist(s) once that Library's done and 2-pop whip out the Vultures from Eridu, but I'm open to the alternative.

Yep, I see Uruk running scientists but we need pure GS odds. However, if we feel pumping out an army early is a priority then Uruk only will have to do.

I still don't mind the north western Cow city proposed earlier (assuming south Stone is gone), but also pleased to consider sites in the north east after we scout it more.

I'd say the NE is indeed a priority after securing our core area. It would be nice to get the stone too, but I'm still not sure if SB actually has a settler there at the moment.

On game set-up, there's presumably some problem I've got with the Barbarians' start. I do give them Archery, but the World Builder file doesn't seem to record the Barbarians' technology. I have the handicap level for the player set at Immortal.

For IMM, you need to add Ag, Hunting and Archery. I wonder if lack of Hunting is causing the problem. Also, I'm not sure of your process but you need to add the techs in WB after going through the process of setting up the game, not when it is still a WB file. In other words, generate the game using "Play a Scenario", then go to WB and add the techs, then save the game.

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks for your responses.

Yep, I see Uruk running scientists but we need pure GS odds.

I see what you're saying, but setting a Library up in our unit pump city just to guarantee purity for the next seems like a lot of effort. I'd rather leverage the passive points from the capital through the Wonder, and on the small chance that we pop another Great Merchant over a Great Scientist, I wouldn't be totally devastated anyway. It's your turnset, so I'm happy to bow to your wish, but building a Library in Eridu seems a very costly option right now to me.

 

[lymond]

I keep thinking we are Creative. I can't get that out of my mind! We are Elizabeth of Columbia!!!

Oh...forgot to put comment about warrior saying that I did see him. He shall move to MP duty.

Yep, Lib in Eridu will be costly without Creative. We might luck out on a GS. Food sucks right now in general, at least until we start settling in the NE area.

Now we just need input from our Czech and Spanish constituents

 

[vranasm]

barbarian cities with warriors means the barbs didnt have archery as starting technology. it actually make game a bit tougher in some aspects (for example bigger percentage of barb cities will be captured by AI since they will attack with archers) and in some other aspects it makes the game easier (longer time before we get barb archer rushed)

 

[vranasm]

@L

don't have many comments... i am more on the side of 'let's see what they will come up with" ;-)

I am not sure which tech I would like to bulb... Currency with GLH isn't that strong especially if we have alphabet, MC would be good if we had some good coastal spots (which we don't)

not sure with the rush plans, since I think the situation doesn't warrant Vulture warfare.

maaaybeee if we would make it a bit more cats+vultures, but I am no big fan of cat warfare since it's slow, starts late if you don't spec for it from T0 and generally slows your lib date to the point where you probably won't get it and can't do reasonable classical->ren transition.

But now I remember we agreed not to go Lib... well maybe going MC->Machinery would be better... I would recheck the bulb path for some deeper bulb? maybe even Feud/guilds?

 

[lymond]

Okay, I went ahead and played.

Honestly, I've never understood the logic that GLH makes Currency weak. It immediately boosts your trade routes and gives you access to more gold and better tech trades. I netted at least 400g during my turnset and got us a lot of tech in the process.

I ended up going the Construction route since our tech pace was rather nice after Currency and we can now decide whether we want to do a little fighting or expand as much as possible.

We met all the AIs. Boody is now Irish. Shaka is Shaka. Washington is well some Founder dude ha.

Made this trade rather early:

Spoiler :

Pretty much one Vulture took this city but I sent another one up there. We need to spawnbust a bit up there anyway:

Spoiler :

Who is this clown:

Spoiler :

I think he is somewhere in the East, but not sure.

This was a good deal. I shopped for the best one. AIs were obviously teching Maths as I check the tech values (another thing Currency is good for)

Spoiler :

It pissed off Founder, but who cares.

Apparently, the Zulus are in Bioshock! :

Spoiler :

Here's the current tech situation:

Spoiler :

I traded a few other smaller techs for nice wads of cash.

I think Boody got Oracle for MC. Founder built ToA just recently.

Note that the barb city to the north of Uruk should hopefully block China from sending settler parties via sea to our land anytime soon.

However, it should be noted that the land to the NE does connect to a snaky path towards Ireland and whatever else is East, so we should not hesitate too long.

I have another settler close to being done, but wanted to grow another pop since we have more happiness. I held off HR switch to see if we want to go into OR to spread some religion around as well, plus happiness is not dire. Yeah, Eridu has one, but we can whip it now.

Whip worker in Kish next turn...we really need more badly now.

SB got another Settler around the bend and almost a 3rd but URuk popped borders again and push that settler back. That land is not a big loss though other than making any war with him a bit tricky.

Variant calls for attacking both China and NA, so I'm not sure what we want to do there, but it will be a grind.

What is this about no going Lib? This is a Space game.

Oh, and I run some scientists for a spell in Uruk, so we are real close on a new GP. MC is a placeholder right now. Not sure what we want to do if we get a GM or GS. Academy still seems good to me. We might save GM for CS. Put the scientists back after growth to pop GP then pump out a settler best as we can.

Uruk can then grow and whip Settlers at higher populations....I think we keep it at least at 6 or 7 to work good tiles or run specs.

OR we pump units..whatevah

EDIT:

I meant to add some land pics:

Central:

Only iron popped down south of Uruk. With GLH its a worthwhile city spot with some chain farming later.

Spoiler :

East:

As you can see the land keeps on going. Interesting Map layout.

Spoiler :

NorthEast:

Some actual decent land and some seafood for Sushi

Spoiler :

West:

Ah..there's Linc.

Spoiler :

 

[Folket]

Looks good. But we need more settlers.

 

[astre]

seems nice.
with construction, we can go to war

I would forget MC and go either calendar for MoM of road to music via litterature.

a settler for dyed cow seems tempting.

 

[lymond]

We do need more settlers, but we were limited by nerfing growth so much early on and a somewhat dearth of good spots anyway. Going for GLH tends to slow expansion early on as well. However, I usually build it with settlers. It is a bit bizarre that we only have 4 cities.

Anyway, we have a settler popping very soon.

Let someone tech Calendar for us and build MoM for us. We have absolutely no means to build MoM right now...that would be a poor decision.

I think we are in good shape at the moment and can go either direction - war or expansion.

Tech wise I"m unsure. Not sure about Music in this game. I'd rather move toward Lib now and maybe use some Maces to harass Qin and SB.

 

[astre]

we have some prequel before lib but we can do it before we got there.

What i like with music is the NE, great library and the golden age.
and also the money we will get from techs AI does not tech.
but forge have it's merit on its own

btw, too bad there is no horse near us :/ i would have preferd to have some HA to kill some dogs!

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks lymond - got it.

I'd swap into HR and look at Uruk's Settler + several more fairly soon.

PPP soon-ish ...

Re. Zulus and Bioshock Infinite ... negroes and Irish are brought in and given menial low-paid jobs in Columbia and the adjacent area of Finkton/Shantytown, and I felt that there should be a representative of that group. I wanted another AI warmonger, so opted for Shaka over the other African leaders. They're more a stratum of society than an organised group or nation in the way that other tribes are, so opted to keep them as Zulus and not confuse the Civ4 roster by tossing in too many new names.

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks for the turnset ... propelled our way up the scoreboard!

I think we are in good shape at the moment and can go either direction - war or expansion.

Yeah, I'm pretty much thinking the same. I'm inclined to focus more on the settling-expansionary pathway, but have Eridu press on with a degree of military build-up.

Just in case anyone missed it, Sitting Bull's got a Settler in Chaco Canyon, so I suspect more cities to our south, but he might try to nab one of the grassland tiles east of Eridu and really get in our face.

PPP:

Civics:

Swap immediately to Hereditary Rule.​

Cities:

Urik: I'd pick up one of those coastal citizens and run a Scientist. Settler swapped back to the top of queue at size 6, grow population with Barracks, and then another Settler.

Eridu: Lose the Copper to Kish and work the Silk for 3 turns for a chunky bit of whip overflow off the Catapult. Keep on with Cats.

Kish: Steal the Copper and go for two Workers.

Lagash: I'm not sure we especially need a Monument, but a border pop I guess would protect our Cows from China and pick up the grassland hill. Press on with the Monument, and then a Catapult. Move Warrior back for garrison.​

Great Person:

If Great Scientist, then Academy in Uruk (bulb option being Compass). If Great Merchant, bulb Metal Casting.​

Technology:

Calendar > Metal Casting/Machinery I think is sensible and the way we should go. I like the path to Music nonetheless and would probably do that in single-player, but it's a SG, so Calendar > MC/Machinery is what I'll suggest even though I note lymond would like to see us trade it in rather than self-research.​

Settlements:

Once we start looking north east and turn a bit of a blind eye to the jungle, there are a lot of choices for some semi-reasonable sites.

Closer to home however, there's north west of close Iron ... very poor food-wise until chain irrigation (and hard work even then), but will pick up the homeless Silk for a small but economically self-sufficient spot. North of Iron shares Uruk's Corn but misses the two grasslands and the Silk, so I'd lean to north west of the two.

... or lymond's 'canal city' being three tiles to the north east of Uruk, picking up the Cows and sharing the Gold?

... or settling on one of the Dyes (middle one is coastal, east one will pick up Sugar and Rice)?

... or the jungle-choked coastal city east of the Rice that picks up Banana, Rice, and Sugar?

... or do we look beyond the jungle and into the temperate terrain, such as Copper-Fish-Sugar?

Input here would be appreciated.​

Trades:

Nothing too much excites, but if Boudica was willing to exchange Monarchy+Alphabet for Metal Casting on the unlikely chance she'll even put it up for trade (and we don't bulb it beforehand), I'd grab it.​

 

[lymond]

My thoughts spoiled for size:

Spoiler :

Just in case anyone missed it, Sitting Bull's got a Settler in Chaco Canyon, so I suspect more cities to our south, but he might try to nab one of the grassland tiles east of Eridu and really get in our face.

I noted in my report that the Settler you see there was blocked by Uruk's border pop right as it was heading SE to settle - possible next to the Iron - so SB sent the settler back to Chaco. AI will not move Settlers through our borders and if he was going to settle there he probably already would have. He could eventually send galleys to the SE area with settlers though.

Civics:

Swap immediately to Hereditary Rule.​

I might hold off on Civic switch until settler pops. We aren't in dire need of HR this turn and unhappy in Eridu will be whipped off. This will allow us to keep Uruk growing now, put settler back in queue and finish and pop next GP. Then anarchy will occur while settler is in transit.

We might consider double switch to OR in case we adopt a religion later. It would allow us to spread Judaism in the meantime, although this is not really a priority at the moment.

Cities:

Urik: I'd pick up one of those coastal citizens and run a Scientist. Settler swapped back to the top of queue at size 6, grow population with Barracks, and then another Settler.

Exactly what I would have done if I continued. Get the next growth pop this turn, then back to settler and run scientists until something pops, then put citizens back on tiles to finish settler and grow.

Eridu: Lose the Copper to Kish and work the Silk for 3 turns for a chunky bit of whip overflow off the Catapult. Keep on with Cats.

Sound good to me. I was switching the copper as needed and we can continue to do that to max OF or whatever we need in either city. I might whip Cats into Vultures.

Kish: Steal the Copper and go for two Workers.

Whip Worker next turn into another Worker sounds good.

Lagash: I'm not sure we especially need a Monument[/INDENT]

I'd keep on with the MOnument for now, unless a religion spreads there soon. I feel we will want the border secured there.

Great Person:

If Great Scientist, then Academy in Uruk (bulb option being Compass). If Great Merchant, bulb Metal Casting.​

Academy sounds fine. I'm iffy on GM usage. I think we should tech MC now or CoL. Could use GM on CS or actually use a TM at this point.

Technology:

Calendar > Metal Casting/Machinery I think is sensible and the way we should go. I like the path to Music nonetheless and would probably do that in single-player, but it's a SG, so Calendar > MC/Machinery is what I'll suggest even though I note lymond would like to see us trade it in rather than self-research.​

Yep, I'm opposed to Calendar. Almost all AIs prioritize this tech and should have it soon. Very easy Currency trade plus some gold. We can then focus on more important techs.

Settlements:

Closer to home however, there's north west of close Iron ... very poor food-wise until chain irrigation (and hard work even then), but will pick up the homeless Silk for a small but economically self-sufficient spot. North of Iron shares Uruk's Corn but misses the two grasslands and the Silk, so I'd lean to north west of the two.

... or lymond's 'canal city'

... or settling on one of the Dyes (middle one is coastal, east one will pick up Sugar and Rice)?

... or the jungle-choked coastal city east of the Rice that picks up Banana, Rice, and Sugar?

... or do we look beyond the jungle and into the temperate terrain, such as Copper-Fish-Sugar?

Overall, I say we settle close and push outward gradually. Knowing more about the land I'm willing to cede "canal" city for a spot 1N of there such that we have cows/dyes, really better overall city. We can drop a fort on that dry plains tile anyway should we feel the need.

Iron city on your spot would be nice next to secure iron (we can then trade away copper). City will do fine with some chain irrigation and have decent production. Plus it will be coastal. (With iron and some chops we can get out some fairly quick settlers or workers here)

Then we can push out into the NE gradually. Might be a good idea to start mapping spots. Something to the east near rice bananas and/or fish could create a land seal to Ireland's expansionist thoughts, though galleys could come.

Trades:

Nothing too much excites, but if Boudica was willing to exchange Monarchy+Alphabet for Metal Casting on the unlikely chance she'll even put it up for trade (and we don't bulb it beforehand), I'd grab it.​

That is a possibility. She might trade after building Colossus. With that in mind, we may want to go CoL for possible CS unlock and bulb. I'm not sure what takes priority for a GM should we get one.

 

[astre]

quite agreed with most of beeing said.
I agree with Lymond not to bulb MC, not to tech calendar and use possible GM for a TM toward lincoln. Unless we can aim to bulb CS.

extract GM prefered techs:
Metal Casting
Code of Laws
Paper
Civil Service

that lead us with 2 options in my mind: road to CS or road to litterature

for settling space, i would not go far and always on coast. I'm thinking about : on central dye (my prefered), on canal (quite weak but close) or south of barb ruin (too mutch jungle for me but potent enough with 2 food and 2 mines).

btw, there is vulture exercise on babanas.

 

[Cam_H]

Why do my turnsets never seem as action-packed as lymond's?

Nonetheless, we founded Confucianism, built l'Academie de Uruk, settled Iron-Silk, have a Settler still running around in the jungle, whipped the bejingoes out of several cities and consequently a score drop, (imho) got a cracking deal for our Copper, and we're a bee's whisker off the circumnavigation bonus.

Spoiler :

Opening

Despite the suggestion to minimise the civic switches and therefore anarchy, the prospect of Hereditary Rule was too much to ignore. We switch so we can whip units without much burden. Did a quick begging session with our 'Pleased' rivals for technology, but 'no dice'.

Early-turns

Ran Scientists in the capital; Uruk, and shuffled tiles between Eridu and Kish so that Kish could switch to a Worker and have citizens leverage developed tiles. Technology switch to Code of Laws with a view to Civil Service. After population growth, Uruk swaps from Barracks to Settler.

Mid-turns

We get our and found the Academy in the capital;

The Gold resource is connected by road.

Eridu whips a Catapult into a Vulture.

Kish whips a Worker into a Vulture.

George Washington of the Founders demands Priesthood, to which we concede given it's cheap and well known.

Eridu's Vulture is completed and we start building another Catapult.

Kish's Vulture's done, so it goes back to its semi-built Barracks.

Eridu becomes the Confucian Holy City.

Code of Laws > Civil Service

Uruk goes from one Settler to the next.

We connect our second Cow resource. Boudica doesn't have Cows, but she's got no spare coin either.

Note that Lincoln of the Vox Populi has Feudalism.

Late-turns

We found the coastal Iron-Silk city of Ur, which is admittedly quite food-poor, but good enough given some so-so options;

Start on a Granary.

Both Eridu and Uruk are whipped for good overflow.

The Wine resource near Eridu is up and running.

The Iron mine is still not up, but a really good trade opportunity presents itself and we take it;

Science drops to 70% after the secured in lymond's trades has largely disappeared.

Note that Qin Shi Huang has Aesthetics.

Lagash finally gets its Monument and begins on a Granary.

With no metal temporarily, we can produce some cheap HR Warriors, with Uruk's overflow from the Settler going into one, and Eridu's overflow from the Catapult going into another. Uruk after that returns to the Barracks build, and Eridu back to another Catapult.

We end up making a Sheep <> Cow trade with Boudica.

Sitting Bull has acquired Calendar.

Iron's finally up and running.

The Confucian Missionary has a good scout around Native America's core empire.

End of Turnset

Whip Eridu's Catapult to provide 29 overflow.

Kish has a whippable Worker, but maybe it could just be finished off conventionally.

Nothing much on the trade-front.

Work Boats are close to securing the circumnavigation bonus.

Judaism is becoming the dominant religion. Kish has Judaism. Other cities of ours have picked up Confucianism naturally. Sitting Bull has no State religion and we could infect him with Confucianism.

Tech' comparison;

nocho << Up
vranasm << On Deck
pigswill
astre
Folket
lymond
Sengir << Skip until otherwise advised
Cam​

 

[Folket]

Without cottages around our capital did we really need the academy? Our we planing to continue running scientists here?

 

[nocho]

I'm sorry but I'm on holidays until after the weekend, so I need a skip.

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks nocho ... enjoy your holiday.

nocho
vranasm << Up
pigswill << On Deck
astre
Folket
lymond
Sengir << Skip until otherwise advised
Cam​

Folket,

(a.) Can't change the decision now.

(b.) PPP was up for a day and a half, and the Academy plan was not opposed.

(c.) While not the typical commerce-rich capital we often see, there's still a fair enough commerce haul from the Gold Mine, the trade routes, the Palace, and in time the Silk to warrant the Academy. With Civil Service not far away, we can lift the food haul and I can't see why a few Cottages couldn't go down as well as the proposed Scientists.

 

[vranasm]

cough cough... I am up you say? didn't count with it... will try to look afternoon...

will probably need some pointers from you and L about the direction we go, since I am a bit out of touch.