The European Project: the future of the EU.

[Hrothbern]

I like you, and don't want this to continue when it will obviously lead nowhere - due to both parties.
I am somewhat perplexed, though, that it seems fine to you if China gains influence by investing in stuff here, but there is no problem with the influence Turkey has in NL. That I don't understand, certainly. Coupled with China not sending warships to an Eu country either, it seems very strange to be against the one but in favor of the other.

Yes
let's stop it

Did you make a typo with "that it seems fine to you if China gains influence by investing in stuff here" ?
I am in general not fine with China making investments in the EU.... we have money enough here at cheaper terms.

I do not think that the Netherlands is that much of a friend anymore of Turkey since the turmoil during the elections a couple of years back where Erdogan accused the Netherlands of a lot of things I will not repeat here, but it was so disgusting that it caused lasting damage for the NL-Turkey relation for the broad masses of Dutch people and the establishment. And that can only disappear when Erdogan is out of the equation.

 

[Kyriakos]

(yes, obvious typo)

 

[r16]

of course Al Crusading would attack Cyprus . For being antagonistic to New Turkey winning , even if there is no ending to New Turkey needing to win . But one must really appreciate the value of an EU rated passport because New Turkey makes you citizen when you buy 250 000 dollars worth of housing . Before signs of meltdown that was a million dollars of investment ...

 

[Hrothbern]

The new EU regulation described below will make it easier for EU countries to punish the violators of human rights without the hurdle that this is a strong escalation by being aimed at the entire country.
Because each EU member country is free to decide, other EU countries cannot block with a veto.
Adding to the "all or nothing" sanction capability of the EU a proportional response (from a EU countryto individuals).

EU towards individual human rights sanctions regime
On Monday, the European Commission submitted a proposal for a regulation that will allow EU countries to punish human rights violators individually, for example by freezing their bank balances or not issuing entry visas. Until now, this is only possible in the context of sanctions against an entire country.
The US already has such legislation, named after a Russian lawyer and whistleblower who died in his Moscow cell. That is why the proposed EU scheme is also known as the European Magnitsky Law. Canada and the United Kingdom have already preceded the EU. In Brussels, however, people prefer not to speak of a 'Magnitsky regulation' to avoid the impression that the legislation is aimed exclusively at Russia. This is a sensitive issue in some Eastern and Southern European member states.

Mighty weapon
Minister Stef Blok of Foreign Affairs responded pleased on Monday. The Dutch government has been pushing for this legislation for some time and was supported by a majority of EU countries at the end of last year. Commission President Ursula von der Leyen announced in September that she would come up with a detailed proposal. On this basis, the EU could punish 'serious violations and violations of human rights' worldwide, 'wherever that happens and whoever is responsible for it'.

If a travel ban is imposed, the Commission will monitor it 'for the first time', the Commission reports on Monday with some emphasis. The regime does not replace existing sanctions against an entire country, currently affecting individuals from Syria, Venezuela or Belarus, among others.

According to EU foreign representative Josep Borrell, it is a powerful weapon to deal with people who are guilty of human rights violations. "This is a way for Europe not only to stand up for its values, but also to act on them."

https://fd.nl/economie-politiek/1361366/eu-zet-stap-naar-individueel-sanctieregime

 

[Kyriakos]

US and Canada aren't a union of countries. I am pretty sure this will be another tool in the race to be a parasite.
And Der Leyen is a nobody - quit pretending she is more than a puppet who unlike her predecessor wasn't even elected. She is on the same level of clown that your forged MA degree minister was, both ridiculous yes-men/women about whom others had dirt on and so rendered them even more of a ridiculous yes-man/woman.

 

[Hrothbern]

US and Canada aren't a union of countries. I am pretty sure this will be another tool in the race to be a parasite.
And Der Leyen is a nobody - quit pretending she is more than a puppet who unlike her predecessor wasn't even elected. She is on the same level of clown that your forged MA degree minister was, both ridiculous yes-men/women about whom others had dirt on and so rendered them even more of a ridiculous yes-man/woman.

How many "ad hominems" were in that post ?

 

[Kyriakos]

How many "ad hominems" were in that post ?

That not what ad hominem means, otherwise one should never say what negatives Trump has. Forged dutch minister MA degree & corrupt german minister turned to Eu head are well known.
But feel free to focus on China or Russia, all else is fine (now that's an ad hominem)

 

[Hrothbern]

That not what ad hominem means, otherwise one should never say what negatives Trump has. Forged dutch minister MA degree & corrupt german minister turned to Eu head are well known.
But feel free to focus on China or Russia, all else is fine (now that's an ad hominem)

Kir, what you basically do is picking a "bad" guy or women and then extrapolating conclusions to entities they work for. You "ad hominem" whole peoples and institutions by that mechanism.

 

[Kyriakos]

Kir, what you basically do is picking a "bad" guy or women and then extrapolating conclusions to entities they work for. You "ad hominem" whole peoples and institutions by that mechanism.

Sometimes you surprise me, Hrothbern. Reading what you wrote one could think those names belong to some janitor. Having compromised heads of the Euro-group and the Euro parliament is rather suicidal, but the comedy continues - until Augustus dies.

 

[Verbose]

The new EU regulation described below will make it easier for EU countries to punish the violators of human rights without the hurdle that this is a strong escalation by being aimed at the entire country.
Because each EU member country is free to decide, other EU countries cannot block with a veto.
Adding to the "all or nothing" sanction capability of the EU a proportional response (from a EU countryto individuals).

All well and good. At least it removes the problem of duos of member states being able to bloc any kind of joint sanction, and forcing every other member state to at least seemingly endorse whatever nocive policies they have been getting up to.

 

[Hrothbern]

Sometimes you surprise me, Hrothbern. Reading what you wrote one could think those names belong to some janitor.

They are both a kind of messengers with a mandate.
Compare it with football
When a team like Barcelona or Olympiakos does not perform well for too many matches in a row... who is replaced ?... the team or the coach ?

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, maybe the fact that friendly and pro-Europe country Germany sells more than 1/3 of its weapons to Turkey (to be used against other Eu-states), will lead to interesting situations with Erdogan's new statement where he styles himself as the jihad-issuing protector of all muslims and against attempts to check radical islam

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Tuesday criticised his French counterpart Emmanuel Macron's proposal to defend his country's secular values against radical Islam as an "open provocation."


This is the third successive day of Turkish anger at Macron's plan to "liberate Islam in France from foreign influences," adding to a growing list of disputes between the French leader and Erdogan.

Macron last week described Islam as a religion "in crisis" worldwide and said the government would present a bill in December to strengthen a 1905 law that officially separated church and state in France.

He announced stricter oversight of schooling and better control over foreign funding of mosques.

"Macron's statement that 'Islam is in a crisis' is an open provocation beyond disrespect," Erdogan said in a televised address.

"Who are you to talk about the structuring of Islam?" he asked, accusing him of "impertinence."

https://www.france24.com/en/2020100...ance-s-secular-values-view-of-islam-in-crisis


The good thing with Erdogan is that he has massively overextended and thinks safety is within reach, so can freely speak against France or whomever. Problem is that France is an actual major power, and has vested interests in the mediterranean. Germany or satellites of it won't diminish those interests, nor will messing with the muslim public in France (which isn't turkic in the first place) have an anodyne or covert effect.

 

[Hrothbern]

Which Union does Eastern Europe join? Or do they get one of their own?

I can‘t really see a way forward to that scenario of a Northern and a Southern Union, but in the end why not. It seems clear though from the past 30 years that while the Economic Union is the driver of the development of the Union, its benefits lie on the political side and what it can force - say in the realm of social security or human rights. It‘d be a shame to give that up for a smoother economic development.

Overall the EU is imo enormously succesful for the lifes of the people living in the EU.
And from mainly economical power we can protect many standards of life of which most people outside the EU+ can only dream.

But

In the South countries established politicians, newsmedia, movement leaders bombard their people with vocal rhetorics on "the great injustice" being done to them by the North.
On top you have the usual sentiments and convictions that the Brussels technocrats are bad technocrats and supporting the power and interests of the big multinationals. The anti-establishment attacks.
This has been going on for decades by now and on top the des-information tools have become stronger.
The intention of the Euro that it would help convergence does not seem to work.

There are many rational analyses that can be made on all these aspects, but they do not cut wood in the sense that the damaging behavior of established politicians, newsmedia, movement leaders is throttled down with their vocal rhetorics.

The simple messaging of EU bad, Brussels bad, the North selfish can be repeated at little effort.
The also simple messaging that integrating faster towards a Federation, with a United States of Europe, is the solution forward can be repeated also with little effort.

Both opinions do not need any serious evidence to be kept alive because utopias behind the horizon never need evidence.
And because we have not another "EU" in the world as comparison we cannot point to examples.
Considering the global changes and this diverging in the EU, Brexit a convenient experiment for the economical value of the EU Single Market membership.

What I seek is a way forward that does not contain much transformation risks but does deal with the main stings of the EU cohesion damage.
The Single Market stays as the biggest economical asset and biggest power tool.


Lots of "the great injustice" done to the South is argumentated with being chained into the Euro.
When all Eurozone member agree this can be changed quite easily.
But it would be a huge defeat for the Federalists.

=> When the Federalists prefer to continue the structural damaging taking place now above giving up their utopia.... so be it.
In that case they were either right in thinking they can weather out the storm.... or wrong in which case EU countries are going to vote with their feet.

Assuming the Federalists will give in one way or another... the South countries get the same choice they had in the early 90ies: "you can have the Euro when you comply to the fiscal and monetary discipline of the North"
With the lessons learned by now... that such a decision cannot be based on political makeability but must be founded in societal and economical realities... I can imagine some countries leave the Euro.
In this little step the Euro and ECB can still stay as they are only with a little bit less size and possibly less global clout.

It will anyway not affect the protection of traditional values and standards in the EU.

EDIT
Arakhor, perhaps better when my answer is moved to the EU thread
Sorry


.

 

[r16]

if the "Golden Generation" was the one that went down in the Disgrace of July 15th , they probably would be taking over the regiments and the like in 2008 , where this long expected adjustment of the balloon of the global economy , which like grew fast , especially knocking out the Greek stuff . This is where you people missed the bus . With "no" ability to deal with so many traitors this side , your Military might have a chance ... Alas for Greece , everybody here will understand the reason for things to happen , and you are still expected to be destroyed . For the benefit of your "allies" in the EU and elsewhere ... sure , right on time , Pashinyan was qouted on the radio refusing a diplomatic solution , you know , as if he was winning , just a minute ago . This is what your people have been avoiding , incidentally driving your civilians crazy ...

 

[Kyriakos]

You should realize that war is avoided for very different reason on either side of the aegean. On your part, with so many anti-Erdogan cells in the military, war would be lost in more ways than one (removing the entire fleet while at it). Here the politicians don't want war for an entirely different reason.
That said, it's not like the politicians here push for war. It is the red land that does - and in that case you would be more correct to claim the public doesn't realize war is actually against the plans there.
But France isn't Greece - so will drag even Greece if it has to, and it won't have to take part in a brief war either (war, mind - not some small episode with two ships).

 

[mitsho]

Spoiler :

Overall the EU is imo enormously succesful for the lifes of the people living in the EU.
And from mainly economical power we can protect many standards of life of which most people outside the EU+ can only dream.

But

In the South countries established politicians, newsmedia, movement leaders bombard their people with vocal rhetorics on "the great injustice" being done to them by the North.
On top you have the usual sentiments and convictions that the Brussels technocrats are bad technocrats and supporting the power and interests of the big multinationals. The anti-establishment attacks.
This has been going on for decades by now and on top the des-information tools have become stronger.
The intention of the Euro that it would help convergence does not seem to work.

There are many rational analyses that can be made on all these aspects, but they do not cut wood in the sense that the damaging behavior of established politicians, newsmedia, movement leaders is throttled down with their vocal rhetorics.

The simple messaging of EU bad, Brussels bad, the North selfish can be repeated at little effort.
The also simple messaging that integrating faster towards a Federation, with a United States of Europe, is the solution forward can be repeated also with little effort.

Both opinions do not need any serious evidence to be kept alive because utopias behind the horizon never need evidence.
And because we have not another "EU" in the world as comparison we cannot point to examples.
Considering the global changes and this diverging in the EU, Brexit a convenient experiment for the economical value of the EU Single Market membership.

What I seek is a way forward that does not contain much transformation risks but does deal with the main stings of the EU cohesion damage.
The Single Market stays as the biggest economical asset and biggest power tool.


Lots of "the great injustice" done to the South is argumentated with being chained into the Euro.
When all Eurozone member agree this can be changed quite easily.
But it would be a huge defeat for the Federalists.

=> When the Federalists prefer to continue the structural damaging taking place now above giving up their utopia.... so be it.
In that case they were either right in thinking they can weather out the storm.... or wrong in which case EU countries are going to vote with their feet.

Assuming the Federalists will give in one way or another... the South countries get the same choice they had in the early 90ies: "you can have the Euro when you comply to the fiscal and monetary discipline of the North"
With the lessons learned by now... that such a decision cannot be based on political makeability but must be founded in societal and economical realities... I can imagine some countries leave the Euro.
In this little step the Euro and ECB can still stay as they are only with a little bit less size and possibly less global clout.

It will anyway not affect the protection of traditional values and standards in the EU.

EDIT
Arakhor, perhaps better when my answer is moved to the EU thread
Sorry

.

Ah, you moved the answer to another thread where - yes it fits more. You once again have a very lengthy, precise and insightful answer.

But I just can't fail to note that my original question isn't answered - and neither did anyone bother in the other thread. Where does Eastern Europe fit into that whole Northern-Southern divison? There was once talk of old and new Europe too. I just think, that's a variable that can throw a lot of things off.

Also, there were just this week the Three-Seas-Talks which bring together (nearly) all EU countries between the three seas (Black, Adriatic and Northern Sea).

 

[innonimatu]

Ah, you moved the answer to another thread where - yes it fits more. You once again have a very lengthy, precise and insightful answer.

But I just can't fail to note that my original question isn't answered - and neither did anyone bother in the other thread. Where does Eastern Europe fit into that whole Northern-Southern divison? There was once talk of old and new Europe too. I just think, that's a variable that can throw a lot of things off.

The same way it fitted back in the inter-war period. France and Germany grasping for influence there, and the locals fighting against it and taking advantage and playing one against the other. They're grown-ups, can deal with it.

 

[EnglishEdward]

And from the pro EU Guardian itself:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/22/italy-reignites-mont-blanc-border-dispute-with-france

Italy reignites Mont Blanc border dispute with France

Foreign minister makes formal complaint about ‘interference’ on the highest Alpine peak

Arguing over a glacier. Who do they think they are, China and India?

 

[Hrothbern]

And from the pro EU Guardian itself:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/22/italy-reignites-mont-blanc-border-dispute-with-france




Arguing over a glacier. Who do they think they are, China and India?

Some convulsions of nationalism aimed at harmless issues.

What was the last one between France and Italy ?
Da Vinci in the Louvre
He did die in France
But Salvini and Macron were up in arms about it
https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...ini-spat-macron-louvre-500-years-artist-death

 

[Hrothbern]

Ah, you moved the answer to another thread where - yes it fits more. You once again have a very lengthy, precise and insightful answer.

But I just can't fail to note that my original question isn't answered - and neither did anyone bother in the other thread. Where does Eastern Europe fit into that whole Northern-Southern divison? There was once talk of old and new Europe too. I just think, that's a variable that can throw a lot of things off.

Also, there were just this week the Three-Seas-Talks which bring together (nearly) all EU countries between the three seas (Black, Adriatic and Northern Sea).

With Brexit, the EU is not back in the duo-poly situation of Germany-France of before 1973.
The North started the Hanseatic "gatherings" for a while and the East (+Austria) started their Three-Seas-Talks in a more regular setting. Both groups without the duo-poly player Germany.
The South started intensifying talking and have regular meetings now as well. The South including France, one of the duo-poly players.
Trump visited one of the Three-Seas-Talks meetings.

Before I go on with my answer

I assume that this old new Europe in your post is referring to the US (invented that "old Europe") taking an interest in strenghtening East Europe towards more rightwing, more NATO, more independent from Germany-France. A replacement for the UK.

Correct ?