The European Project: the future of the EU.

I know that all

It is also not going to solve the situation
certainly not of that little rock near the Turkish coast where 300 people live... ot was it 500 during summertime ?
(and that 200 miles sea )

Kastelorizo isn't in the central Aegean, an entirely different issue.
That said, unless my math is wrong, 300 people is 300 times more people than you are. Islands that have a population certainly have their own zone, that is again established by international law.
Kastelorizo, furthermore, became part of Greece in the Paris treaty following WW2. It was controlled by Italy before that. The Paris treaty names all those islands as "aegean islands" as well (it's not just Kastelorizo but a few others, linking it to Rhodes' zone).

The situation would have been solved by now, if the Eu actually threatened to impose serious sanctions. Do you think Turkey could survive actual economic collapse? It already is in bad shape and has issues with 20 million kurds as well, risking civil war.
 
Kastelorizo isn't in the central Aegean, an entirely different issue.

Why do you all the time assume that I don't know !

Just reading Dutch newsmedia, according to you not reporting on this, is more than enough to be well informed

And that island 200 mile situation is part of the problem just like Cyprus (and that convulsion of the junta) and just like Halloumi cheese https://www.politico.eu/article/halloumi-cheese-puts-eu-trade-policy-to-the-test/

or the protection for Greek Feta since 10 hours in China:
https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/09/...ood-protection-deal-between-the-eu-and-china/


Learn to make deals !
you know
something in it for everybody
Otherwise it goes like those two dogs... and the third dog time running away with the bones
Fossil Big Corporate is already stating that 2019 was the last big fossil year... and appetite waning to invest in new wells
 
Why do you all the time assume that I don't know !

Just reading Dutch newsmedia, according to you not reporting on this, is more than enough to be well informed

And that island 200 mile situation is part of the problem just like Cyprus (and that convulsion of the junta) and just like Halloumi cheese https://www.politico.eu/article/halloumi-cheese-puts-eu-trade-policy-to-the-test/

or the protection for Greek Feta since 10 hours in China:
https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/09/...ood-protection-deal-between-the-eu-and-china/


Learn to make deals !
you know
something in it for everybody
Otherwise it goes like those two dogs... and the third dog time running away with the bones
Fossil Big Corporate is already stating that 2019 was the last big fossil year... and appetite waning to invest in new wells

Why would one make a deal giving away what is already their right by international law? Unlike (as your dutch mep said) Holland, Greece doesn't have a 400-year old history of friendship with Turkey :p And even if it had, you still don't give away something for nothing, neither for "not to risk being attacked", unless you have no self-respect as a country in the first place.

Not sure why you mentioned cheese - I am sure you know it takes a massive lot of cheese to get the price of just a little bit of natural gas. Ie this isn't serious.
 
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Why would one make a deal giving away what is already their right by international law? Unlike (as your dutch mep said) Holland, Greece doesn't have a 400-year old history of friendship with Turkey :p And even if it had, you still don't give away something for nothing, neither for "not to risk being attacked", unless you have no self-respect as a country in the first place.

Not sure why you mentioned cheese - I am sure you know it takes a massive lot of cheese to get the price of just a little bit of natural gas. Ie this isn't serious.

If you are so sure you get what you want... go to court !
 
That is the point: UNclos already gives Greece 12 miles. Why ask a court to give you (at best) what you already will get by declaring it yourself and be already within your UN rights? I am curious, why do it, in your view?

Apparently you do not want to go to court !
Is that because court is not going to give you what you want ?

If you are so sure to win in all aspects you want... you have nothing to lose with going to the ICJ
 
Apparently you do not want to go to court !
Is that because court is not going to give you what you want ?

If you are so sure to win in all aspects you want... you have nothing to lose with going to the ICJ

Sorry, did you read the question? Do other countries go to court to declare 12 miles of sea? Why should Greece do what others do not? And you didn't answer: why would anyone go to court to get (at best) what is already their (not theoretical or subjective, but UN -law) right to get by declaring it?

The country should have declared 12 miles yesterday already. It's not like the Eu attention span is great, so it would have been the ideal time. Hopefully it will be done, but who knows with all the garbage one has to deal with.
 
Sorry, did you read the question? Do other countries go to court to declare 12 miles of sea? Why should Greece do what others do not? And you didn't answer: why would anyone go to court to get (at best) what is already their (not theoretical or subjective, but UN -law) right to get by declaring it?

You were so happy with the remarks of that Dutch MEP...
?
but he basically concluded with "go to court" (if you are not able to settle the situation in negotiations)

After some tit for tat making clear that Turkey will not like the EU sanctions that will come if it continues:its position reacting on the quoted remark of Turkey to "go to war" if Greece would apply that 12 mile territorial waters move.
That Dutch MEP of the Liberals (Dutch VVD, EU Renew) makes the following chained row of suggestions
* as sign of de-escalation the Turkish drilling ship is withdrawn
* we need a constructive way forward by impartial mediation for example the ICJ, the International Court de Justice in The Hague.
* Dear Turkey, consider this (above) as a "proposal" to move forward

Do you think that was only aimed at Turkey ?

Now.. some two weeks ago I saw in a Dutch Newspaper a short remark that IF the issue would be put forward to the ICJ the likely verdict would decrease the total area of Greek waters a little bit but would keep all important oil-gas areas Greek.
But such a ICJ verdict would in general be very bad for Turkish claims on sea surface.

Besides debate and political debate, often not coming much further than political inputs... there is proper governance and proper courts applying (already agreed) laws.
 
You were so happy with the remarks of that Dutch MEP...
?
but he basically concluded with "go to court" (if you are not able to settle the situation in negotiations)



Do you think that was only aimed at Turkey ?



Besides debate and political debate, often not coming much further than political inputs... there is proper governance and proper courts applying (already agreed) laws.

I am not sure what gave you the impression I was happy with your dutch mep :p

And you haven't answered me. Why should Greece do what others don't have to do? Other countries declare 12 miles by themselves, and are recognized (Turkey did it too, in the Black Sea). Did Turkey go to court to declare that? Did anyone else? Why do you expect someone to do it when the end result would (at best) be the same they get by declaring as is their right? (please answer this time, citizen of a 400 year old friend of Turkey :p )
 
I am not sure what gave you the impression I was happy with your dutch mep :p

And you haven't answered me. Why should Greece do what others don't have to do? Other countries declare 12 miles by themselves, and are recognized (Turkey did it too, in the Black Sea). Did Turkey go to court to declare that? Did anyone else? Why do you expect someone to do it when the end result would (at best) be the same they get by declaring as is their right? (please answer this time, citizen of a 400 year old friend of Turkey :p )

The situation with Turkey is first of all about oil-gas.
That 12 mile a since long outstanding issue made awake by Greece again because of that oil-gas.

But if you insist... claim what you are indeed entitled to regarding those 12 miles... and face the consequences
not that war threat. Turkey will not go to war really.
but the reaction of other countries towards Greece with Greece throwing in this since long outstanding issue when it is only an escalating action for another issue.
 
The situation with Turkey is first of all about oil-gas.
That 12 mile a since long outstanding issue made awake by Greece again because of that oil-gas.

But if you insist... claim what you are indeed entitled to regarding those 12 miles... and face the consequences
not that war threat. Turkey will not go to war really.
but the reaction of other countries towards Greece with Greece throwing in this since long outstanding issue when it is only an escalating action for another issue.

Can you mince your words a little more? :/
Anyway, don't worry, if the war threat wasn't real there would be 12 miles already. But now indeed is the perfect time to declare 12 miles, and see how the Eu reacts when a war happens triggered by a country using the same UN right all other countries used and got war for it :p

Let's see what happens, and I wish I could be optimistic, but with this Eu I am not (including whether Greece will declare 12 miles as it most certainly should and must).
 
Can you mince your words a little more? :/
Anyway, don't worry, if the war threat wasn't real there would be 12 miles already. But now indeed is the perfect time to declare 12 miles, and see how the Eu reacts when a war happens triggered by a country using the same UN right all other countries used and got war for it :p

You are a warmongerer
and therefore denounced :goodjob:
 
that casus belli declaration is a line in the sand drawn by the scabbard if that's the word , because it is disgusting to kill the foe with germs the sword picked up from the sand . While it is entirely feasible to stick the entire blade into the trunk of the foe , or remove the head with proper motion . No law actually stopping Greek ships sailing to the Black Sea , while the prohibitions against Greek warships stem from the arrangements agreed for the security of the Soviets of the time . Call 21 days before the transit and of you go with your frigate and whatever . Of course there will be arguments that Turkish civilian ships can transit and warships can skirt own coast , but that's not it . Do not like ever try to test whether it would happen , this war thing . lt was designed with a two front war in mind , 2 to 4 countries and sanctions and embargoes , in addition to full blown internal troubles , do not deign out to find out whether the preparations were ever true .

of course New Turkey . Which actually removed the clause from laws and whatnot during the times Democracy was coming to Turkey , after about 30 years it was a parliamentary decision and the like . Removed in addition to giving an island to the Greeks or two every year . With full knowledge that it was aimed at small print , as they had sold every secret military plan to any Foreigner . Swayed by the good feeling that the Greeks would reciprocate by selling to New Turkey's Arabian overlords , to equally smite the small print . ı don't care right or wrong or international court . lt was brought back because of the political survival of New Turkey and peace is like undisputably breaking out or whatever as Merkel naturally bended some earlobes , but it is only proffessional courtesy expected of any Starfleet Admiral , that there is going to be a lot of hurt and what makes people to think people that they would even scrape off the paint of a ship in orbit ?
 
I think you're being too gung-ho about the difficulties the Greek government would have faced in navigating an exit from the EU without a clear popular mandate to do so. Even with massive popular support it will not be easy for a government to do this, particularly a country with as many socioeconomic problems as Greece.

I'm not. Project fear is always deployed against those wanting to end some the EU political arrangement. "It'll be worst if you change things"!

Recall brexit. The sky would fall the day after the referendum if people dared vote leave. Then it would fall if the UK dared not sign the EU's "deal". Ireland would go into civil war, the Channel ports would stop, people would die for lack of medications. and pigs would fly!
But none of that happened. Things carried on, the EU no longer legislates for the UK, its "backstop" temporary deal is about to expire and all dire predictions have been proven lies.

Greece could and should have left. Its government betrayed its people, to serve the comparatively few wealthy in Greece would would see their properties and some (few!) remaining financial assets within Greece devalued. For the "common greek" this was irrelevant, the higher costs of imported stuff balanced out by lower local costs, and a necessary and inevitable redistribution of assets and new priorities for its government. The wealthy oligarchs of Greece would flee, so much the better for the greeks.

By fearing change, refusing change, you remain stuck in this neoliberal dystopia of "consumer" debt slavery and reducing living standards anyway. Projects fear (as done in so many countries, including yours) is about defanging the only threat to the current masters of the situation, people democratically choosing to change things.
The game is played in exactly the same way in both sides of the Atlantic. Europe will break with it first because there are so many countries and so many elections, it's harder to make fear win everywhere. The EU's purpose is to make Europe "one", prevent people in any one country from starting to change things and this giving an example for others: "but you'd have to leave the EU, it will be disaster!". Basically the EU's political project has been about emulating one aspect of the USA: the political lock-in over the population there. But leave we will, all of us, this deceit!

The ones who wanted to change the constraining political construction here, remaining within it, were all defeated. The idiot greek finance minister, Corbyn (or rather, Labour against him), etc. Only by breaking away from it can change start. And perhaps that will be the only way to change things in the US also...
 
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Even the most anti-EU economists I know of, the ones who actually did think Greece's best move was leaving the monetary union completely, admitted that this would likely have caused things to get worse before they got better, with costs hardly being borne by the affluent or oligarchs alone. And the difficulties I'm talking about are political as well as technical.

But none of that happened. Things carried on, the EU no longer legislates for the UK, its "backstop" temporary deal is about to expire and all dire predictions have been proven lies.

I wouldn't say they've been proven lies quite yet. But as you know I was among those saying that the predictions of ruin from Brexit were based on economic theories that drastically overstated the value of "free trade."

The ones who wanted to change the constraining political construction here, remaining within it, were all defeated. The idiot greek finance minister, Corbyn (or rather, Labour against him), etc. Only by breaking away from it can change start. And perhaps that will be the only way to change things in the US also...

If you know how to change things so easily, run for office. I mean that seriously. I have become much more pessimistic about the possibility of "changing the system from within", but of course here in the US it's not the EU which is "the system" but the whole apparatus of bourgeois democracy itself.
 
If you know how to change things so easily, run for office. I mean that seriously. I have become much more pessimistic about the possibility of "changing the system from within", but of course here in the US it's not the EU which is "the system" but the whole apparatus of bourgeois democracy itself.

Don't worry, we have the left-wing case against the EU well covered in my country. Not making too much noise about it at the moment but a second party with representation has come around to the same view, it's about 25% of the votes already, and the time to move will come. It's already enough support for real left-wing policies that the local oligarchs are trying to set up a phony "populist" here. Who won't go far.

The thing with people here, as to be fair is the case with Greece, is that people are easily frightened with the "we're small, must go along" talk. But the going along should not be confused for any kind of enthusiasm. The EU will have to start breaking from Italy, then the others will join on the exit.
 
I think that, regardless of how it came to happen, brexit really is the most crucial event in the history of the Eu.
Without it there would be less of a chance for Italy to leave in the future. And it should go without saying that without Italy there is no Eu - it won't just be another country leaving, but dissolution.

When Italy would leave the EU I would consider that as a loss for the EU, but it will imo in no way end the EU.
Even "only" getting out of the Euro for Italy would already be a major challenge for Italy, but also imo in no way end the Euro.
Most issues that Italy faces will stay the same (read Italian newsmedia) and most benefits and issues in the remaining EU will stay the same.

Brexit is indeed a major event for the EU, but so was imo also the joining of East-Europe.

But how you look at things depends ofc also on whether that is more political or economical based.
If you look at the EU as a "something" political union, the leaving of Italy has another effect than when you look at the EU as a economical union ++

Do mind that the positives for an economical union come mainly from the scale size clout of the Single Market, the savings on border customs and other transactional cost, and trade with your directly neigboring EU members. Just a booster on that you trade the most with neighboring countries.
 
oh-kay ı haven't posted in like what , two days ? And nowhere else remotely relevant but let's see , as EU simulated a guard having Coronavirus issues - delaying the EU summit during which they are supposed to get sanctions against New Turkey . lt is so peaceful in the Med , so much that New Turkey "engineers" have "bombed" some large scale drawing of a Greek flag on the island of Meis with 100 kilograms of red paint . And trust me , ı am not the only one who read that thread ... expecting there was a swarm of drones that repainted a Turkish flag on that , because as you know or don't know that lbn Haldun said geography was fate/destiny and New Turkey wants to rule over Roman/Ottoman lands ... Economy seems to be melting down harder than usual , so the world has decided there should be war ...
IMG_20200928_234606_859.jpg


some guy in Armenia . Sides trade more blows with the videos of people they killed , Kim Kardashian has intervened , there are a lot of comments here about her famous body parts , Azeris might possibly recover a lot of Karabağ depending on how long they will be able to press on . You know , r16 as a time capsule , will help me remember the days . Because the sides have also imported Syrians , both of them , with the agent Syrians credit with organizing the Libyan affair expected back to organize in Azerbeycan . Translation , the failed lrresuction and its "reformist" influence on this country to be rekindled with a "victory" of they didn't win to be stolen from the Azeri Armed Forces for specific use in New Turkey media when its time comes . Needs another translation ? Well , don't bother ... We are what we are , we were and we will be .

but a pertinent note , of sorts . People will remember this Russian "celebrity" yours idiotly actually saw on the street . Turns out she has a thread on the echo chamber , she really likes to be in this country and she costs 8000 euros for the night in 2019 terms . Nobody has ever told me who and why of it , sending on my way , but don't bother , ı will really demonstrate orbital bombardment stuff , one of these days ...

moral of the post , EU will do nothing while fake glories enable another year or two of plunder and pillage .
 
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Beijing's friends in the EU
Too many Chinese "investments" ?

The German ambassador to the United Nations released a statement last week on behalf of 39 countries expressing deep concern about the human rights situation in China's Xinjiang province and Hong Kong.
Most EU Member States signed this statement, but the Czech Republic, Hungary, Greece, Portugal, Romania, Cyprus and Malta did not.

https://fd.nl/economie-politiek/1360135/europa-heeft-last-van-zombies
 
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