The fall of Greece *rant*

The incorparation of the Greek states into the Roman empire was a blessing for both entities: Greece finally had some stability. (intead of the athenian/spartan antithese and all the joy and glitter involved with it) and rome ot culturally enriched a lot. Oh and btw, Persia did had a lot of influence in Greece, it's not like they hated each othe all the time, only when it's convienent :mischief:
 
He doesn't need you to prove anything to him, he already knows what's right. It's you who's being intolerant of the Truth. You should yield to him posthaste.

You're trolling. Everyone else here is speaking truths except you. I've learned a lot about this event by all the different people here, but not you.

Please go away.
 
You are all talking as if Macedonia and Greece were something different!

There was no Greece (Hellas) before Alexander's father Philipous. He was the first to unite city states and (Athens, Sparta, Thebes etc) and give them the name Greece.

Before Philipous there were common elements (language, religion, customs) that city states had but there were not a country...although they united and fought to gether against foreign (barbaric) threats like the Persians.

Imagine something like USA without a federal government and without a name for the whole country.

Also keep in mind that alot of citiies in Roman empire were started by Greeks. Many city states like Sparta and Corinth kept "brother" bonds with certain Roman cities for centuries...so Romans were not considered enemies by a big percentage of Greek population...and as result were invited to help in internal Greek conflicts in many cases.
 
You are all talking as if Macedonia and Greece were something different!

There was no Greece (Hellas) before Alexander's father Philipous. He was the first to unite city states and (Athens, Sparta, Thebes etc) and give them the name Greece.

[...]

Imagine something like USA without a federal government and without a name for the whole country.
Except that the League of Korinthos collapsed after the death of Alexandros, when the Lamian war started. The situation in most of Greece after the dust from the initial Diadochi conflicts finally settled in the 270s BC was one where Makedonian symmacheia (rule through puppet tyrants and "alliances") dominated in parts of Greece, like Athenai, but Sparte itself, as well as the great federal Leagues, were wholly independent and fought periodic wars against the Makedonians, frequently supported by the Ptolemaioi via their Aigion holdings. There wasn't really a political unity in Greece after the end of the League of Korinthos, though there were obviously great cultural ties. Makedonia came close several times to imposing rule on the rest of mainland Greece like it had after Chaironeia, but never managed to fully subjugate the Peloponnesos or Aitolia, much less Epeiros, and so was unable to prevent the Romans from gaining inroads in the late third century BC.
Indiansmoke said:
Also keep in mind that alot of citiies in Roman empire were started by Greeks. Many city states like Sparta and Corinth kept "brother" bonds with certain Roman cities for centuries...so Romans were not considered enemies by a big percentage of Greek population...and as result were invited to help in internal Greek conflicts in many cases.
Absolutely, especially in Megale Hellas. Tarentum/Taras was one of the few Spartan colonies, for example. Such 'colonial' ties (perceived or real), were also used by some of the Hellespontine cities in attempted alliances with Rome, because Rome had been founded by Trojan refugees according to legend. But I think that a more important motivator would be that following the weakness of the Ptolemaioi under Ptolemaios IV and their defeat in the Fifth Syrian War at the hands of Antiochos, which kind of excluded them from taking their traditional role as the 'protector of the Greek liberties' (which was obviously just a way for them to keep the Antigonids weak). So the Greeks had to call on the Romans, who had already intervened in Illyria twice by that time and thus had a good relationship with some of the Greek poleis for fighting off the Illyrian piracy.
 
You are all talking as if Macedonia and Greece were something different!

There was no Greece (Hellas) before Alexander's father Philipous. He was the first to unite city states and (Athens, Sparta, Thebes etc) and give them the name Greece.
The idea of a single Hellenic ethnicity pre-date the Macedonian conquest by centuries. It's simply that the Greeks, lacking modern concepts of the nation-state, saw no contradiction between a shared Greek ethnicity and loyalty to their individual city state. After all, the Scottish Gaels or Anglo-Saxons saw themselves as defined ethnicities, but that didn't stop the clans and kingdoms, respectively, from warring constantly.
 
There was no political unity in Greece before Alexander the Great either but they managed to fight back Persia.
 
Not quite true. There were alliances and the like, but you're right, no united central government. Hell, there wasn't even a proper central government under Alexander or his father.
 
There was no political unity in Greece before Alexander the Great either but they managed to fight back Persia.

That was mainly because in the interests of all greeks, fighting back persia was one of the main objectives (i guess you could say). Fighting the Macedonians was their #1 objective at the time of the romans, not fighting rome. Some greeks thought they were strong enough to handle the problem themselves, others made alliances with other greeks and some made alliances with the Romans against the Macedonians. By the time the romans conquered Macedonia, it was to late for greece.
 
Before the Romans, the Greeks, under Alexander, "Hellenized" half the known world. Greek, like Latin, was spoken by the learned men of that time. I believe the Macedon kingdom that ruled Greece was weak after Alexander and fell to Roman power. Also, Greece was involved in the numerous civil wars Rome had and those that supported Mark Anthony or Brutus and Caisus, did fare well.
 
There was no political unity in Greece before Alexander the Great either but they managed to fight back Persia.
Yeah, but political unity or lack thereof probably wasn't the main asset against the Persians, but instead Greek tactical advantages, naval power (which Salamis solidified), and major Persian logistical issues were the key factors. It was a ridiculously small group of states that actually did participate in the conflict, not even the entire Peloponnesos (Argos failed to join the coalition and actually toyed with allying with Persia for awhile), much less the Boiotians, Thessalians, or Makedonians. Admittedly, though, it was a larger coalition of Greek polities that opposed Xerxes than ever opposed Rome at any one time.

When fighting against the Romans - assuming they did, which most of the time they didn't - the Greeks suffered major issues from their loss of their tactical preponderance (IMHO the Hellenistic and Roman tactical systems were roughly equal or possibly even slightly balanced in favor of the Greeks, but it was nowhere near the supremacy that they had had over the Persian military machine), as well as the Romans' not suffering the same logistical or naval issues that the Persians did, and the aforementioned lack of Greek alliances on the same scale as previously. The argument has also been made that the Greeks were undergoing demographic issues due to the emigration of many of their citizens to the East in the Hellenization process, though I'm not really convinced that that forced the Greeks to have smaller armies than previously. (Kleomenes III, that genial protosocialistic madman, for example, managed to raise an army of comparable size to that of Antigonos Doson of Makedon during Kleomenes' eponymous war, using Spartan assets alone.)
 
That was mainly because in the interests of all greeks, fighting back persia was one of the main objectives (i guess you could say). Fighting the Macedonians was their #1 objective at the time of the romans, not fighting rome. Some greeks thought they were strong enough to handle the problem themselves, others made alliances with other greeks and some made alliances with the Romans against the Macedonians. By the time the romans conquered Macedonia, it was to late for greece.

Exactly. So then they conquered Greece as well.

But the key word is conquered, not "absorbed"
 
I didnt say conquered, certeirnly some areas were conquered, but the greeks that the romans made alliances with, you could say, got "absorbed".

If they made alliances with them, then they're two different independent states allied with each other. Such as Sweden and the Ottoman Empire.
 
If they made alliances with them, then they're two different independent states allied with each other. Such as Sweden and the Ottoman Empire.

it is different because the greek's who made allies werent just two different states, Rome became to strong both militarially and Culturally that it sucked those greeks into their empire.
 
If they made alliances with them, then they're two different independent states allied with each other. Such as Sweden and the Ottoman Empire.
Or Russia and the Crimea? It's called vassalage.
 
^ That was the word i was thinking about! i was thinking, "hmm... Colonies? no.... Alliance? noo...."
 
it is different because the greek's who made allies werent just two different states, Rome became to strong both militarially and Culturally that it sucked those greeks into their empire.

United States and Canada are allies. We are much stronger than them Militarily, and Culturally identical in nearly all ways. Never the less, we have yet to "absorb" them.
 
United States and Canada are allies. We are much stronger than them Militarily, and Culturally identical in nearly all ways. Never the less, we have yet to "absorb" them.

If you looked up, i meant Vassalized. USA hasn't Vassalized Canada, and their's no friggen chance for USA to absorb a bigger country. :rolleyes: especially not today. Fail. Find better example.
 
If you looked up, i meant Vassalized. USA hasn't Vassalized Canada, and their's no friggen chance for USA to absorb a bigger country. :rolleyes: especially not today. Fail. Find better example.

Poland and Germany are sizably comparable but they invaded them quite easily. They kicked your butt liked your nothing. The United States could kick Canada just as bad as Germany could Poland. The only thing hurting us is a bad economy. There's no way for us to "absorb" or "vassalize" Canada, and there's no way for Rome to do so to Greece. If America COULD vassalize Canada then I would have made an argument against myself! Thats the whole point that they can't!
 
Poland and Germany are sizably comparable but they invaded them quite easily. They kicked your butt liked your nothing. The United States could kick Canada just as bad as Germany could Poland. The only thing hurting us is a bad economy. There's no way for us to "absorb" or "vassalize" Canada, and there's no way for Rome to do so to Greece. If America COULD vassalize Canada then I would have made an argument against myself! Thats the whole point that they can't!

I have never read a poster who can make so little sense with such firm conviction. You sir, deserve a medal. Because we have not yet colonized Canada means that Rome could not have colonized Greece.

I don't believe I have ever glanced upon such a brilliant hypothesis anywhere in all the halls of Academia. I'm astounded. Seriously.
 
Back
Top Bottom